Is John Hagee Baptist?

Fron www.jhm.org

Israel and the Jewish People

Q. Why are you so outspoken in your support of Israel and the Jewish people? What relevance does the Bible have to the Middle East today?

A. The support of Israel is a biblically based mandate for every Christian. All other nations were created by an act of men, but God Himself established the boundaries of the nation of Israel. God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a covenant of land that was eternally binding, and it's recorded in the book of Genesis. God also told Abraham that He would make Abraham's descendants into a great nation and through them He would bless all the families of the earth. In the same passage, God said He would "bless those who bless you" (Abraham), and "curse him who curses you" (Gen. 12:3). That gets my attention. I want to be blessed, not cursed, by God.

The Bible shows God as the protector and defender of Israel. Psalm 121:4 says that He never slumbers or sleeps in His watching over the nation of Israel. The prophet Zechariah said that the Jewish people are "the apple of God's eye" (2:8). Any nation that comes against Israel is, in effect, poking God in the eye-not a very wise thing to do! If God created Israel, if God defends Israel, if God considers Israel the apple of His eye, then it is logical to say that those who stand with Israel are standing with God.

Every Christian should remember the debt of gratitude the Christian community owes to the Jewish community. The Jewish people do not need Christianity to explain their existence or their origin. But Christians cannot explain their existence without Judaism. It was the Jewish people who gave us the written Scripture. They gave us the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They gave us the disciples and the apostle Paul. The Jewish people gave to Christianity the first Christian family, Mary, Joseph, and Jesus-our Savior! If you take away the Jewish contribution to Christianity, there is nothing left.

Geopolitically speaking, we should support Israel because it is the only true democracy in the Middle East. The tiny democracy of Israel is surrounded by feudal states and brutal dictatorships that control vast regions of land and oil resources. The presence of the Israeli Defense Forces brings stability to that part of the world.

The current conflict in the Middle East is not just about land; it's about Israel's right to exist as a nation. The land has never belonged to the people who now call themselves Palestinians. The area was named Palestine by the Romans, but there has never been a nation called Palestine, and there is no Palestinian language. Before 1948 these people were Egyptians, Syrians, Jordanians, Iraqis, and citizens of other Arab nations who had moved to the region. They were displaced by the war of 1948, but Israel is not occupying their territory.

Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority clearly do not want peace. During the Clinton Administration they were offered a Palestinian State with part of Jerusalem as its capital, along with control of 97 percent of the West Bank-everything their own negotiators had said was requisite for peace. Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak agreed to the deal, but Yasser Arafat turned it down flat. He walked away from peace, sending a tacit message to the terrorists, who continue their slaughter of innocent lives in their pursuit of destruction of the Jewish State.

Beliefs
The Lord Jesus Christ
We believe in the deity of Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God. We believe in His substitutionary death for all men , His resurrection, and His eventual return to judge the world.
Salvation
We believe all men are born with a sinful nature and that the work of the Cross was to redeem man from the power of sin. We believe that this salvation is available to all who will receive it.

The Holy Spirit
We believe in the existence of the Holy Spirit as the third person of the Trinity and in His interaction with man. We believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit as manifested by the fruit and the gifts of the Spirit.

The Sacred Scripture
We believe in the scripture as the inspired Word of God and that it is the complete revelation of God's will for mankind. We believe in the absolute authority of the scripture to govern the affairs of men.

Stewardship
We believe that every man is the steward of his life and resources which ultimately belong to God. We believe that tithing is a measure of obedience to the scriptural principles of stewardship.


The Church
We believe in the Church as the eternal and universal Body of Christ consisting of all those who have accepted the work of the atonement. We believe in the need for a local assembly of believers for the purpose of evangelism and edification.

Prayer and Praise
We believe in the worship of the Lord through singing, clapping, and the lifting of hands. We believe in the authority of the believer to ask freely of the Lord for his needs.

Body Ministry
We believe in the ministry of the Holy Spirit to the Church body through the anointing of oil by the elders of the church.

Evangelism
We believe that evangelism is the obligation of every follower of Jesus Christ. The Lord commands us to go out and make disciples of all the earth. We believe that each person is first responsible to evangelism in their own family as the Holy Spirit leads them and gives them the ability.

Water Baptism
We believe in the ordinance of water baptism by immersion in obedience to the Word of God. All those who have accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior should be baptized in water as a public profession of their faith in Christ and to experience what the Bible calls the "circumcision of the Spirit."

Our Commitment to Israel
We believe in the promise of Genesis 12:3 regarding the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. We believe that this is an eternal covenant between God and the seed of Abraham to which God is faithful.

The Priesthood of the Believer
We believe that every believer has a unique relationship to the Lord. As His children, every Christian has immediate access to the throne of Grace and the ability to manifest the power of the Lord Jesus Christ in ministry.

I'm missing the "dual convenant" part?

 

"All other nations were created by an act of men, but God Himself established the boundaries of the nation of Israel. God gave to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob a covenant of land that was eternally binding, and it's recorded in the book of Genesis. "

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Gal 4:23 But he [who was] of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman [was] by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, [was] not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
Rom 4:16 Therefore [it is] of faith, that [it might be] by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Bible makes it pretty clear - the seed of Abraham - and heirs according to the promise God gave Abraham - are Christians, not Jews. Specifically, it is Christ, and those who are in Christ. This means that genetic decendants of Abraham are not heirs of the land rights associated with the Abrahamic covenant as Hagee suggests, but rather Christians are the heirs. What does the scripture say:

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God has concluded the Jews who live under the Law and the Abrahamic/Mosaic covenants as unbelievers!

Present day Jews are "spiritual Ishmael" not "spiritual Isaac" as Hagee supposes.

Gal 4:28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him [that was born] after the Spirit, even so [it is] now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Ishmael was Abraham's firstborn. But he was the son of the flesh. He was NOT the son that God has promised Abraham. Isaac was the son that God promised Abraham. For Isaac to recieve his inheritance, Ishmael had to be banished and diowned. Likewise, the Jews in their covenant had to 'fall short of the glory of God' and be 'counted as unbelievers' for salvation to come to the Gentiles. But because salvation is now come to all, the Jews may all now be saved. Whereas no Jew could keep the law - indeed the purpose of the law is to show that none are worthy - now all Jews can be saved through Jesus Christ.

Moreover, the land rights Hagee associates with Israel are not eternally granted the nation of Israel, but is the inheritance of the children of Promise - Christians. For the Jews on a wide scale to qualify for this inheritance, the Jews on a wide scale need to come to Jesus. But Hagee doesn't know or agree with this. Hagee thinks they have already qualified for the promise by being the genetic decendants of Abraham. He thinks the Jews covenant (the circumcision and the law) are enough to get them to the Father.

 

You can start a new thread if you like. I don't necessarily agree with everything in the WoF stream, I was simply explaining the background to my pastor's belief. If you think that God's Word is a mixture of truth and decpetion, then we certainly don't agree. </font>[/QUOTE]That is what you said - that doctrine is a mixture of deception and truth. I believe that all doctrine must be held to God's Word - which is THE TRUTH.
It's not difficult

Why would you stay in a denomination that you knew was deceived?

 

So YOU have found the perfect church then, have you? One where everyone agrees entirely on every doctrine?

My pastor once said -- and I think there is some truth in the humor -- that if you ever find a perfect church stay away from it because you'll mess it up!

No where you go is going to have perfect doctrine because no one agrees entirely on all doctrine. I had to ask myself and God if I could live with the differences of opinion I have with WoF and go to this church. At the time that answer was yes. Our differences were minor enough to not be 'salvation' or 'life and death' issues.

However, in Dual Covenant Theology the church is basically saying that an entire ethnic group of people do not need to be evangelized or saved before they die. To me - that is a life or death salvation issue.

I am glad we can agree that God's Word is truth in it's entirety.

 

I pretty much agree with what you have said to that point.

I would argue that the key to the position you are defending is found in these verses.

Gal 1:6-9 "there is only ONE Gospel"

Heb 4:1-2 "The Gospel was preached TO US just as it was TO THEM".

Gal 3:7-8 "The ONE Gospel was preached beforehand to Abraham".

The only way anyone was ever saved NT or OT was through the blood of Christ and ALL had to go through the new birth experience - ALL had to be convicted by the Spirit of God - the exact same mechanism (Gospel) in ALL ages!

This is why in John 3:1-14 Christ can freely condemn Nicodemus for being a bible teacher and yet not knowing this important "New Birth" truth of the OT text.

In addition to all of this Romans 2 the last 4 verses makes it clear that in all ages the only REAL circumcision was that which is done in the heart by the Holy Spirit.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here we have Hagar and Sarah and the contrast it between mount sinai and the Gospel.

In 2Cor 3 we see the same contrast between the New Covenant and the Old Covenant.

In BOTH illustrations the point is the same --

1. Nobody is saved under the Old Covenant.

2. Nobody is lost under the New Covenant.

Romans 3 and Galatians 3 make the same point- the old Covenant is of the form "obey and live". We are ALL under that covenant at birth as lost children of Adam and we are ALL condemned as sinners by that covenant of law.

But the NC in ALL ages has been salvation through Christ - it IS the ONE Gospel in all ages "preached to US just as it was to them also".

Under the New Covenant (Heb 8 shows this) God writes His Laws into the heart, forgives sins and adopts us.

AS Long as we remain in the New Covenant we are saved. This has always been true in all ages.

So at the "spiritual level" the Old Covenant is "salvation by being perfectly sinless and never having sinned". This is the covenant with Adam "if you eat of the tree you shall surely die". It is the FIRST covenant made with mankind.

It is the SAME covenant that condemns us all as sinners today and shows that we ALL need Christ - the Savior of the "World".

In Gal 4 Paul symbolizes that OLD Covenant with Hagar and with Sinai. But we see it clearly in Gen 2 and 3 as well.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Matt 5:5 Christ makes the same claim for God's People as He is making in Romans 4.

Daniel shows that the ultimate Gospel role of Christ is to restore the New Earth to the saints.

In all cases - the saints inherit the New Earth -

So while it is true that at the rapture in 1Thess 4 (which is the event of the FIRST resurrection in Rev 20 starting the 1000 years) - we are all caught up and taken to heaven -- to the place in heaven Christ has gone to prepare for us (John 14:1-3) it is also true that at the END of the 1000 years (Rev 21) the New Jerusalem with the saints of God comes down out of heaven and the New Earth is created after the Lake of Fire event is completed.

So the "inheritance" promised in Romans 4 and in Matt 5:5 has NOT occured NOT even for Moses, Elijah and Enoch in heaven - until that promised New Earth is created and it is turned over to the saints -- the saints 'have not yet received what was promised'.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The physical land covenant with Israel had a predicted "end" if they should fail. In Matt 23 Christ pronounces the curse of Solomon on Israel.

In 1 Thess 2 - Paul declares that Israel had filled up the cup of their iniquity. Ending their probation.

IN Daniel 7 - Daniel shows that the 490 year timeline covers the entire remaining portion of time alotted for Israel.

When Christ said in Matt 23 "your house is left unto you desolate" it is the words of Solomon in 1Kings 9.

 

So YOU have found the perfect church then, have you? One where everyone agrees entirely on every doctrine?

My pastor once said -- and I think there is some truth in the humor -- that if you ever find a perfect church stay away from it because you'll mess it up!

No where you go is going to have perfect doctrine because no one agrees entirely on all doctrine. I had to ask myself and God if I could live with the differences of opinion I have with WoF and go to this church. At the time that answer was yes. Our differences were minor enough to not be 'salvation' or 'life and death' issues.

However, in Dual Covenant Theology the church is basically saying that an entire ethnic group of people do not need to be evangelized or saved before they die. To me - that is a life or death salvation issue.

I am glad we can agree that God's Word is truth in it's entirety. </font>[/QUOTE]No church has perfect doctrine - but the basic Gospel must be foundational.

Word of Faith is *another gospel* - the base doctrine DENIES the DEITY of JESUS.

 

Agreed.

 

Are you in a WoF church? I am interested to know what you mean here.

I have not seen this doctrine in the WoF church I go to.

 

Great point.

 

Are you in a WoF church? I am interested to know what you mean here.

I have not seen this doctrine in the WoF church I go to. </font>[/QUOTE]I used to go to a WofF church - do you know where your pastor went to seminary or Bible college? Was it Rhema in Tulsa, OK?

 

Are you in a WoF church? I am interested to know what you mean here.

I have not seen this doctrine in the WoF church I go to. </font>[/QUOTE]another gospel means a gospel or message preached that is not Biblical - in other words, something other than "Jesus is God manifest in the flesh".

 

My pastor is Mac Hammond (www.lwcc.org). He has never been to any seminary or formal Biblical training.

He was an air force pilot in Vietnam, and then he started his own air freight business which he sold for a gazillion $$ when he felt God tell him to give up his business and go into ministry. They started with a few hundred, and now LWCC is the 2nd largest church in Minnesota (recently surpassed as the largest).

Noticably, you have not answered the question. What doctrine specifically are you referring to that WoF believes that is "another gospel"? There are certainly some doctrines I do not agree with the WoF stream on... but these are minor. Not until the Dual Covenant Theology doctrine has there been anything that is a life or death salvation issue.

 

I am new to this particular thread and have not read all the posts. I have read some critics of the word faith movement and noticed that discussion of the word faith movement has surfaced I consider the "word-faith" movement to be one of the dominant heresies of today. This "word-faith" heresy which originated with E. W. Kenyon and Kenneth Hagin is being aggressively pushed by Copeland, Hinn, Crouch, Capps, Savelle, Avanzini, Price and others of similar stripe.

John MacArthur writing in “Charismatic Chaos”, p. 290, states of the Word faith movement as follows:

“Word-Faith teachers owe their ancestry to groups like Christian Science, Swedenborgianism, Theosophy, Science of Mind, and New Thought--not to classical Pentecostalism . It reveals that at their very core, Word-Faith teachings are corrupt. Their undeniable derivation is cultish, not Christian. The sad truth is that the gospel proclaimed by the Word-Faith movement is not the gospel of the New Testament. Word-Faith doctrine is a mongrel system, a blend of mysticism, dualism, and gnosticism that borrows generously from the teachings of the metaphysical cults. The Word-Faith movement may be the most dangerous false system that has grown out of the charismatic movement so far, because so many charismatics are unsure of the finality of Scripture “

D.R. McConnell, a graduate of Oral Roberts University writes about the word faith movement in “A Different Gospel”, page 186, as follows:

“There are many peculiar ideas and practices in the Faith theology, but what merits it the label of heresy are the following:
1) its deistic view of God, who must dance to men's attempts to manipulate the spiritual laws of the universe;
2) its demonic view of Christ, who was filled with "the Satanic nature" and must be "born again in hell;
3) its gnostic view of revelation, which demands denial of the physical senses and classifies Christians by their willingness to do so; and
4) its metaphysical view of salvation, which deifies man and spiritualizes the atonement, locating it in hell rather than on the cross, thereby subverting the crucial biblical belief that it is Christ's physical death and shed blood, which alone atone for sin.

All four of these heresies may be accounted for by Kenyon 's syncretism of methaphysical thought with traditional biblical doctrine “


The heretical teachings of this word faith movement are summarized by 16 points presented [page 497ff] in the “Kingdom of the Cults” by Walter Martin and revised by Hank Hanegraff.

Heresy #1)

“He’s [God is] very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6’2”, 6’3”, who weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, little better, [and] has a [hand] span of nine inches across.” [Kenneth Copeland, quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 121]

“God spoke Adam into existence in authority with words [Genesis 1:26, 28]. These words struck Adam’s body in the face. His body and God’s were exactly the same size.” [Kenneth Copeland, quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 379]

“He [God] measured out heaven with a nine inch span ... The distance between my thumb and my finger is not quite nine inches. So I know He’s bigger than me, thank God. Amen.” [Jerry Savelle quoted by Hanegraff, Christianity in Crisis, page 122]


Heresy #2)
Faith is the literal substance that God used to create the universe, and He transported that faith with His words. Here, essentially, is what God did. God filled His words with faith. He used His words as containers to hold His faith and contain that spiritual force and transport it out there into the vast darkness by saying, ‘light, be’! That's the way God transported His faith causing creation and transformation. The way that He created the world was that, first of all, he conceived something on the inside of Him. He conceived, He had an image, He had a picture.


Heresy #3)
All things, including God, are subject to this ‘force of faith’ beause it works according to spiritual ‘laws’ of the universe. There are laws of the world of the spirit. The spiritual world and its laws are more powerful than the physical world . The world and the physical forces governing it were created by the power of faith--a spiritual force. It is this force of faith which makes the laws of the spirit world function. The force of faith is released by words. Faith-filled words put the law of the Spirit of life into operation.


Heresy #4)
The greatest thing God conceived of and created was an exact duplicate of himself. This duplicate god--named Adam-was God manifested in the flesh.


Heresy #5)
God eventually went to Adam, who was anatomically male and female, and separated the female part from the male part to make a womb-man (woman). Adam named this ‘man with a womb’ Eve. She, like Adam, was a god.


Heresy #6)
The Fall caused Adam and Eve's divine natures to be replaced with Satan’s nature. They also lost their rights of rulership to planet earth. Even God was barred from having full access to earth because Adam and Eve were under His lordship when they ‘fell’. Through their disobedience Satan became the god of this world.


Heresy #7)
God formulated a scheme to take back the earth, but in order to execute His plan He had to find a human who would invite Him (give Him permission) to work within the earthly realm. Finally, God got to a point where He had His plan ready for operation. And He saw a man named Abraham. In return for allowing God to bring the Messiah through his lineage, Abraham received unlimited health and wealth.


Heresy #8)
For centuries God visualized Jesus. Then, when it was finally time for the Messiah to come forth, God spoke him into existence through faith in the same way that He had visualized and spoken into existence everything else. Bringing forth Jesus, however, was also dependent upon whether or not Mary would lend her faith to help form the body of the Lord out of the literal ‘Word’ (confession).


Heresy #9)
While on earth Jesus was wealthy. He lived in a big house, had a great deal of money, and wore the finest clothes.


Heresy #10)
Although Jesus declared that he walked with God and that God was in Him, he never actually claimed to be God. In fact, during his three years of public ministry Jesus did not stand in a class by himself.... He was ministering on earth as a human being -- a prophet anointed with the Holy Spirit. Jesus remained sinless so He could redeem men from their Satanic natures.


Heresy #11)
In order to redeem humanity, Jesus had to die spiritually as well as physically. When He died spiritually, he died in the same way that Adam died. In other words, He lost His divine nature and was given the nature of Satan. Jesus’ death on the cross and His shed blood did not atone for our sins. The atonement took place in hell through the devil's torturing of Jesus’ spirit for three days and three nights. Unfortunately for Satan, Jesus was taken to hell ‘illegally’ because He had never sinned. This ‘technicality’ enabled God to use His ‘force of faith’ to revive Jesus’ spirit, restore Jesus’ divine nature, and resurrect Jesus’ body. Through the resurrection process Jesus was ‘born again’.


Heresy #12)
When a person is born again they experience exactly what happened to Jesus. Their satanic nature is replaced by God’s divine nature. The transformation is so identical to Jesus’ transformation that Christians become little gods (small “g”) and are as much an incarnation of God as was Jesus.


Heresy #13)
Because Christians are ‘little gods’, they now have access to the ‘God- kind of faith’, which can be used to get virtually anything they want. Christians, rather than God, have authority in the earth over Satan and sickness and disease. Consequently, believers should never pray God’s will be done.


Heresy #14)
To obtain specific desires, Christians must do three things: (1) loose the power of the “force of faith” by speaking or positively confessing whatever is wanted (e.g., ‘I am healed’, ‘I am not sick’, etc.); (2) believe that whatever has been confessed will definitely be received; and (3) ignore or look beyond the visible reality (i.e, remaining sickness, low finances, etc.) and continue claiming what has been confessed.


Heresy #15)
Everything bad, including poverty and sickness, comes from Satan. God’s people should have a completely blessed life. A Christian not experiencing such a life is either: (1) in sin; or (2) lacking enough faith to bring about what is desired.


Heresy #16)
The power of audible confession is so great that sometimes a person can unknowingly bring tragedy upon themselves by making negative confessions. For example, a woman who is mugged may have actually caused that mugging if at any time prior to the experience she made comments like, ‘I live in such a dangerous part of the city that I'm afraid I’ll be mugged’. The woman should have been saying, ‘I will not be mugged’. Similarly, someone who jokingly says ‘I feel like I'm going crazy’ may actually become insane.

The above 16 points show how the word-faith teachers have corrupted the truth contained in the Word of God into gross heresy. I cannot say that all those caught up in the word-faith movement are unsaved but thay are surely following heretical teachings.

 

Your post has nothing to do with the thread topic. You should start another thread if you wish to discuss Word of Faith.

 

Your post has nothing to do with the thread topic. You should start another thread if you wish to discuss Word of Faith. </font>[/QUOTE]If you will check your posts above you will see thaat you have been discussing the Word Faith Heresy.

 

I guess Gup20 doesn't like seeing Word Faith heresy spelled out so plainly.

 

Was John the Baptist (died before the cross) saved or lost?

Were Moses and Elijah (taken to heaven) saved or lost in heaven or on the mount with Christ in Matt 17 - saved or lost?

Were John's parents "saved or lost"?

What about Anna in the sanctuary at Christ's birth? Saved or lost?

(Christ is just the Greek word for Messiah!)

In Christ,

Bob