Saved, Lost, Saved Again.

I finally agree with you.... You are talking about OSAS aren't you?

Stever, with your present position on things sometimes I wounder how or if you get the full message of the scriptures.

I'm sure you would feel the same about me

 

We've had this discussion in the past, but if you will look at the true, intended meaning in the verses you just listed, it blows apart your beliefs on this subject.

James 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

I know you like the KJV because it is easier to twist to fit your theology, however, look at what he is saying.

The only way for one to wander from something is if they are in it.

To wander or err from the truth implies that person was once in the truth.

Let's get the whole context:

13Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.


19My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

James is clearly talking to fellow christians in this entire section.

Therefore, James is stating that one (a christian) can wander from the truth with the end result of death.

He cannot be talking to non Christians because it is IMPOSSIBLE for a non-christian to err or wander from something they were never in. They would be "wandering" into the place that they already are. In other words, the alien sinner is already outside the truth and a warning for him not to wander from the truth makes absolutly no sense at all, since he is already outside the truth.

Back to the "save his soul from death". This cannot be refering to physical death because all die, even Christians. This is talking about saving his soul from spiritual death.

Therefore, in James 5:19-20. You have a Christian that is heaven bound.

Then he wanders from the truth and is hell bound.

Then someone helps him return to the truth, thus saving him from eternal death (Hell).

Thus, he was saved, lost, saved again as you put it.

This in no way contradicts Heb 6, so the two must be in agreement.

Hebrews is talking about the new and better covenant, how Jesus was far superior to the sacrifices in the old law. Under the old law, sacrifices had to be made time and time again, but under the new covenant, Jesus was offered once for all time.

If someone under the new covenant returns to the instructions given under the old law, they count the sacrifice of Jesus as worthless. That person would no longer receive the forgiveness of sins because they are living as though they were under the old law which requires sacrifices, therefore "they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame." That is what I think he is talking about in Heb 6.

 

No it is speaking of physical death. If someone would intervene on behalf of an erring brother he may save that person from an early untimely physical death.

An example:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--The Corinthians were abusing the Lord's Table. For that very reason the Lord judged them. The result was that some among them were weak, some sick, and some died an early, untimely, death that they would not have died had they not abused the Lord''s Table. In other words, had there been someone to warn them of the seriousness of what they were doing so that they would not have erred from the truth, and done that which was right, they would have escaped the judgement of God, and there would not have been death and sickness among the Corinthian Church for that reason.
This is an example of how one can save a person from death. When a believer continues down a road of sin, God will chastise him (Heb.6), possibly with death. It is better that an erring believer be taken out of this world than to continue to bring to shame the name of Jesus. And the Lord will indeed do that.

A Christian is never, never hell bound.
Romans 8:1 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, there is no condemnation.

That is impossible since a believer already has eternal life. He can't lose eternal life. Otherwise you would be attributing a lie to Jesus Christ. Eternal would no longer be eternal. Jesus said "I give unto you eternal life." Did he not mean what he said?

That is heresy.
DHK

 

No it is speaking of physical death. If someone would intervene on behalf of an erring brother he may save that person from an early untimely physical death.

An example:
1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--The Corinthians were abusing the Lord's Table. For that very reason the Lord judged them. The result was that some among them were weak, some sick, and some died an early, untimely, death that they would not have died had they not abused the Lord''s Table. In other words, had there been someone to warn them of the seriousness of what they were doing so that they would not have erred from the truth, and done that which was right, they would have escaped the judgement of God, and there would not have been death and sickness among the Corinthian Church for that reason.
This is an example of how one can save a person from death. When a believer continues down a road of sin, God will chastise him (Heb.6), possibly with death. It is better that an erring believer be taken out of this world than to continue to bring to shame the name of Jesus. And the Lord will indeed do that.

A Christian is never, never hell bound.
Romans 8:1 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, there is no condemnation.

That is impossible since a believer already has eternal life. He can't lose eternal life. Otherwise you would be attributing a lie to Jesus Christ. Eternal would no longer be eternal. Jesus said "I give unto you eternal life." Did he not mean what he said?

That is heresy.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]So, you believe your soul can die. I don't.

James is clearly talking about spiritual death.

Read it again. What is the benefit of bringing the erring back into the truth?

Lets read it again, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, Let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." - Jas 5:19-20

So you say "will save his soul from death" actually means "may save his body from an untimely death".

There is another action tied to the bringing back the erring and that is "cover a multitude of sins".

Why aren't the erring brother's sins already covered?

No, this says bringing them back WILL save their soul from death and WILL cover a multitude of sins.

To stay in the proper context of what James is discussing, you should have gone to James 1, not I Cor. I doubt James had I Cor on his mind when he was penning James. Many of the things written about in the first chapter of James are further discussed in the rest of the book.

James had already stated, "Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:12-15

Surely you wouldn't try to argue that the death here is only physical death, would you?

Can a christian be tempted? How about sin? How about letting the sin mature and leading to death, spiritual death? James 5 is a discussion along this same path, with some more detail. A Christian can err from the truth, resulting in spiritual death because his sins are not covered. However, if someone brings him back to the truth, they save his soul from death and a multitude of sins are covered.

To try and say it is physical death is NONSENSE, but again, that is nearly your only option since you hold on to the false doctrine of OSAS at all cost.

 

Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hbr 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

I have a few questions for you.

Have you been enlightened mman?

Have you tasted of the heavenly gift mman?

Have you been a partaker of the Holy Ghost mman?

Have you tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come mman?

I will jump ahead a presume that your answers are all "yes". This then means that if you could ever fall away (become lost) you can never be renewed unto repentance (saved again). Therefore there is no such thing as saved, lost, saved again taught anywhere throughout scripture for it would be a dirrect contradiction. Therefore James 5 as well as Romans 11 cannot be speaking about saved, lost, saved again.

You have the right to continue in the belief that OSAS is false. However, to continue to post James 5 and Romans 11 as support for your views is in dirrect violation of God's crystal clear word that it is " impossible " to be saved, lost, saved again as stated in Hebrews 6.

God Bless!

ps. however, you could try brother Bob's "subgroup" theology. It would still be seriously flawed but it might help you sleep better </font>[/QUOTE]You only think DHK got it right, because he agrees with you.

Did you read what I said about Heb 6? I have not mentioned Rom 11, but that is a death blow to OSAS and it is CRYSTAL CLEAR along with James 5.

In fact, James 5 is so clear, you have to have help to misunderstand it.

I do agree with your premise, that scriptures do not contradict themselves.

Here are you some other clear passages.

Gal 5:4, “You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace”. The inspired apostle states that those Christians who turn to Moses’ law for salvation (in addition to the gospel, i.e., requires circumcision in addition to the gospel) are “severed from Christ.” Two points should be considered, first, one cannot be severed from that to which he was never joined; hence, we are dealing with apostate children of God. Second, these rebels stand severed from Christ; if one stands separated from the Lord, he certainly is not in a saved position.

Reflect upon this thought, if being “in grace” denotes salvation (see Romans 5:2; Acts 13:43), why wouldn’t being “away from grace” signify condemnation?

Gal 5:7, “You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth?”. Were they obeying the truth? No. Had they been? Yes. It could be said that they had wandered from the truth. James also addresses this in James 5:19-20, “My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.”

What is the result of wandering from the truth? Death! Rationalize all you want, but this is death that results from sin. This is the death of a soul as clearly pointed out by this passage.

What is the consequence for not continuing to “obey the truth”? Rom 2:6-8, “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

What is the basis for our judgment? Our deeds. That’s clearly what this passage teaches. We also know from other passages, that our deeds do not earn us salvation, so don’t let anyone think I am advocating a “works based” salvation. What is the reward for those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality? The WILL get eternal life. OK, what about those who are not patience, who don’t continue, who wander from the truth? Are they doing well, seeking glory and honor and immortality? No. They are the ones who are not obeying the truth, they are obeying unrighteousness. What is their reward? The same as the former? The sinner has wrath and fury awaiting him. Can he change is destination, based on his deeds? Only the patient one who continues in doing well has eternal life awaiting him.
It’s a grave mistake to only focus on the verses that support your position.

There are numerous verses that are conditional. Look at that little word “if”, found throughout the NT.

While many passages listed in support of OSAS provide great comfort to the faithful, they provide no comfort to those who have wandered from the truth (James 5:19-20), stopped walking in the light (I Jn 1:7), stopped confessing their sins (I Jn 1:9).

While it is true that “no one can snatch them out of my hand”, that promise is only for His sheep who hear and follow (John 10:27). Can we stop hearing? Can we stop following? Man does not lose his free will when he becomes a Christian.

It is possible to deny the Master who bought you and so be destroyed (2 Pet. 2:1). Thus, we must keep ourselves in God’s love (Jude 21), and give diligence to make our calling and election sure (2 Pet. 1:10), lest our reception of divine grace be in vain (2 Cor. 6:1).

If OSAS were true, it would be impossible to be better off never having known the way of righteousness than to know it and turn from it (II Pet 2:20).

Jesus announced that some branches – disciples – would be pruned from Him – as the vine – and burned (Jn. 15:1-6).

Jesus is the source of eternal life. We must stay connected to the source. It’s not God who moves away, but our choice. Isaiah 59:1-2 “Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.”

Sure, people will rationalize, perform mental gymnastics and sometimes resort to belittling, to attempt to strengthen their positions or win an argument. I’m not here to argue.

Read God’s word for what it says. It is plain and simple. You don’t need a degree in Greek to understand the bible. You do need help to misunderstand the plain teaching of God’s word.

 

Are you giving me the again brother rather than confronting the clashes between your understanding of the two passages of scripture?

Is Hebrews 6 declaring that one cannot be saved, then lost, then saved again or not? Or do you want to side with brother Bob and say it is a "subgroup" of Christians in order to have it not clash with your understanding of Romans 11?

Which is it? I would like to know your position on Hebrews 6. Does it declare what I said or what Bob says, or niether and you have another answer?

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]You already have my answer and there is no clear response that I can see where you have an issue for or against it. I am a bit rushed here it is my lunch time, but please post your position against what I shared earlier. Thanks.

There are reasonable point but you're too blind to see it. Is it not reasonable that those who has seen as much as some one like Paul (for example) but yet rejects the truth, for it to be impossible for them to turn back to God. Not because God can't save them, but because of their hard hearts.

Haven't you ever heard that Its better not to have known the truth, than to Know the truth and then later to reject(not believe and/or honor)it.

Also, on another note: Step outside your box you built and maybe you will find the answer yourself to OSAS, SLSA and other issues.

 

Your first error is that you don't differentiate between the soul and the spirit, whereas the Bible does (1Thes.5:23).
Your second error is that you fail to recognize that the word "soul" has more than one meaning, the primary one is "living creature. God created the animals with souls, which shoots down your argument, for animals die.

He clearly is not. You speak from your opinion. I back up my statements from the Word of God.

I don't have to read it again. I have the Book of James memorized. The benefit is the same as bringing any person back into the truth--that they don't continue down a road of sin. That much should be obvious. Wouldn't you pray for a son or daughter who had gone into sin that they would come back to the truth? The judgment of God can be very harsh as we have seen in 1Cor.11:30.

First notice that "sinner" and "soul" are synonymous. They are the same person. The soul is the sinner and vice-versa. The sinner will die, and likewise the soul who is referred to as the sinner. Thus, "save a sinner from death," is just as accurate. The terms are synonymous in this verse.

Very evidently since a sinner is going to his deathbed if he doesn't repent from his sin. God will judge a person with the penalty of physical death as is noted in various places in the Bible.

He is a brother (a believer). His sins are already covered (as far as salvation is concerned. They are covered with the blood of Jesus Christ. No one can undo (not even you) that which Christ has already done on the cross. Christ has already paid the penalty. This brother's sins have already been paid for, and covered by the blood of Christ.

They are. You fail to note that he is a brother, that is a believer. His sins are covered as far as salvation is concerned. "There is therefore no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. None! The sins spoken of here are those which separate a believer from God, as do any sin. If he would live he would continue in a sinful lifestyle and those sins would continue to bring reproach upon the name of Christ. Better he die and go and be with the Lord, then to remain and continue to sin. In this way a multitude of sins would be covered.

That is right. If he comes back and repents the multitude of sins will not be committed.
If he is killed by judgement the multitude of sins will not be committed.
But if he is allowed to continue in sin, then the multitude of sins will be committed, and every man shall give account for himself at the day of judgement.

I doubt that James was referring to 1Cor. either since 1Cor. was one of the last books to be written and James was one of the first books to be written (about 50 A.D.) I used 1Cor.11:30 as an example of God's judgement of bringing death upon disobedient Christians. Another example of God bringing death upon disobedient Christians was that of Ananias and Sapphira. What did God do to them. He smote them that they died. Harsh punishment for hypocrisy. Yet had they gone on and lived a life of hypocrisy through the life of the church, they could have done untold damage in the church at Jerusalem. God put an end to it before it got out of hand. It was for their own good, and for the church's good. They were saved from "committing" a multitude of sins.

Absolutely, it is speaking of physical death.
It is speaking of Lust--sin--and death--physical death.
LUST gives way to sin.
SIN ends up in death.
DEATH is physical death, the result of sin.

Just as LSD, the (lust) desire of it, will lead to taking it (the sin), it will ultimately lead to physical death. It may also be a spiritual sin. But it leads to physical death. The wages of sin is death. Death may be both spiritual and physical, but they are definitely physical.

Ye do err not knowing the Scriptures neither the power of God.
This man is referred to as a brother. A brother is always always a believer. A believer cannot lose his salvation. Jesus said "I give unto him eternal life." Is Jesus Christ a liar? Yes or no? "As far as the east is from the west so far has he removed my sin" How far is the east from the west?

The believing brother that cannot lose his salvation is saved from a physical death, and the sins that he would have committed had he died are covered. If he is brought back repentant, the sins had he committed would not be committed.

You have given me an opinion based on your speculations. I have given you Scripture. I know what I believe. It certainly isn't nonsense. Those who don't understand the concept of eternal security do not have a proper understanding of salvation.
DHK

 

DHK - No time to reply today.

Just a quick note: If animals had souls, then there were a lot more than eight souls saved through water.

By the way, I make a distinction between the body, soul and spirit, and so does the scripture.

Gotta run.

 

Take up your argument with God, not me. Words have more than one meaning. Why do you refuse to accept this fact. Here is what the Scripture says:

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

I can tell you what the words mean. I can refer to at least a dozen authorities, all saying the same thing. I'll quote a very familiar source--Scofield, on this verse:

Believe what you like. Animals have souls. God gave them souls. If you care to read Henry Morris's "The Genesis Record," he will tell you the same thing, and in much greater detail.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Souls die.
DHK

 

Take up your argument with God, not me. Words have more than one meaning. Why do you refuse to accept this fact. Here is what the Scripture says:

Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

I can tell you what the words mean. I can refer to at least a dozen authorities, all saying the same thing. I'll quote a very familiar source--Scofield, on this verse:

Believe what you like. Animals have souls. God gave them souls. If you care to read Henry Morris's "The Genesis Record," he will tell you the same thing, and in much greater detail.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Souls die.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]You are the one who needs to argue with God. He plainly stated that 8 souls were saved by water and there were 8 people and many animals. It's not hard to figure out who had the souls and who didn't.

For you to claim that,

"James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death."

is talking about physical death, tells me alot about you and your approach to scripture.

You hold on to your beliefs and twist the scriptures to fit your beliefs.

For you to say that James is warning them about physical death in James 5:19-20, "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." shows that you do not base your beliefs on scripture, rather you are required to twist them to fit your beliefs.

A parrot, given enough time could quote James, yet does not understand it.

There is no indication that James is talking about physical death, in fact, he does not say "may save a soul" but says "will save a soul". You are required to twist this to fit your beliefs rather than using this to get your beliefs.

Therefore, if this was physical death, this person would not die physically, ever. Since even you would not accept that, it has to mean something other than what is says, because if you take it for what is says, it conflicts with your belief of OSAS.

Common sense shows that it is spiritual death being talked about. That is the logical conclusion of this passage.

It is no wonder the Hebrew writer said, "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." - Heb 3:12.

Here we see that one can depart from God, and we are given a warning to "Beware".

Then later we read in Heb 3:18-19 we read,"And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.".

Do you see why they could not enter? Their not obeying it tied to unbelief. They didn't stop believing in God, how could they. They had seen his miracles, cross through the Red sea on dry ground, they had seen His mighty works and witnessed the plagues. They believed in God, they just didn't obey Him.

An evil heart of unbelief can spring up in a Christain, causing him to depart from the Living God, because he is deceived by sin.

What did James say, "But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren." - James 1:14-16

Physical death is the separation of the body and spirit (James 1:26)

Spiritual death is separation from God. Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.” - John 8:51. Surely you wouldn't argue that Jesus was talking about physical death, would you? No, Jesus is talking about spiritual death. Spiritual death is outside of a covenant relationship with God.

Plug these two ideas into James.

1) and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth the separation of the body and spirit.

or)

2) and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth separation from God.

Obviously James is discussing the later.

Now:

1)let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from being separated from the body and cover a multitude of sins.

or

2)let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from being separted from God and cover a multitude of sins.

Obviously the latter is what he is talking about since the first cannot be prevented since it is appointed for man to die physically.

That is some nerve you have to suggest this clear passage has to be talking about physical death, because spiritual death would conflict with what you already believe.

 

Believe what you like. Animals have souls. God gave them souls. If you care to read Henry Morris's "The Genesis Record," he will tell you the same thing, and in much greater detail.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Souls die.
DHK [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]A couple of thoughts, cause I think this is a very interesting subject.

There are two words for soul in the Hebrew nephesh and n'shamah.

nephesh is a complicated word with many variances in meaning. It can mean the life of a living being, and it can mean the seat of emotions, thinking, feeling etc. It is closely connected in meaning, Hebraically, with heart.

n'shamah means breath or spirit of a living being.


1) Within context, the Ez 18:20 "the soul that sinneth it shall die" is referring to either life or death in comparison whether the person is righteous or not - so we could say that nefesh is this case is referring to the spiritual condition of a person.

2) An interesting verse is Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

the word for breathed is n'shamah and the word for soul is nephesh. This is the only reference to "living soul" in the OT. In the NT Paul refers to "living soul" as the first Adam and the last Adam [Christ] as a quickening spirit.

Could we then interpret this to mean that a "living soul" is one that has been reborn of Spirit and Water per John 3?

If one is a true believer, then that person will never die - so the soul does not die either. My conclusion is based on the fact that the soul is the seat of emotions, feelings, thinking, etc so if the soul dies, then only the spirit is with God. A spirit is not an ethereal mindless form, it is heart, soul, and mind as well. A living soul would be one with God in contrast to an unbeliever who's soul "lives" [after physical death], but apart from God and ultimately experiences the 2nd death.

I realize that soul can also indicate a living being - creature or man. I think we have to look at the context to say if it is a spiritual reference or a physical one, because the word "soul" can mean either or both.

 

stevers,

do you believe that angels are saved?

 

took the are angels saved topic to a new thread in General Discussions: Are Angels "saved"?

 

oops - not again