1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The plausibility of John 3:18

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 24, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 6 of 17
  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    While this is true for our courts today They do not call that judgement they call it sentencing a completely different procedure..Judgement is suppose to be a weighing of the evidence.
    MB
     
    #101 MB, Mar 25, 2019
  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The non-elect were judged guilty after the fall. Sentencing comes at the Christ’s second advent.
     
    #102 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is why it says they were condemned(judged) already.
     
    #103 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,905
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Then please, give me ONE verse that shows sin is never a moral transgression. Just one.
     
    #104 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
    • Useful Useful x 1
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,537
    Faith:
    Baptist
    True we are guilty of our own sin as we were there sinning when Adam sinned.

    Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned--

    Not "because all will sin" but "because all sinned".

    The remedy of coming into the world dead in sin.

    John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
     
    #105 HankD, Mar 25, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I never said that sin was never a moral transgression.

    I said that sin is a systemic corruption which extends beyond moral transgressions.

    For example, Paul makes the case that man has sinned apart from that sin being a transgression (here, of a specific command). Jesus uses "sin" to describe a power that has enslaved mankind. Paul often uses "sin" in that manner as well (actually, he uses it as a power or principle more that he does a moral transgression).

    So the question is not for me to provide a verse showing sin is never a moral transgression - as I have repeatedly said it is OFTEN a moral transgression. The question is if you will denounce Scripture enough to claim it is NEVER anything but a moral transgression.
     
    #106 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul says that they are guilty because they rejected God (and the Godhead) as evidenced through Creation. Do you believe this is true?

    The difference is you are supposing the same criteria for belief in Christ as you do for rejecting Christ. This is an error and a rejection of Scripture. Men reject what is made known of God's nature AND the Godhead so that they are not innocent, regardless of what you may suspect. They do not have to hear the gospel message in order to reject Christ.

    Your error here is, ultimately, that you are supposing the gospel is that Christ exists. This is false - Creation testifies to Christ's existence for all things were created through and for Him. The gospel is that the Messiah has come.
     
    #107 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    All men are fallen in Adam. The only remedy is the Christ. If they never knew He existed, they can’t be saved. Acts of the Apostles 4:12.
     
    #108 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Would you please provide the scripture you are basing the above conclusions upon?
     
    #109 The Biblicist, Mar 25, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 2
  10. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2019
    Messages:
    9,905
    Likes Received:
    1,820
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Really? Then what in the world do you mean by the following quote?

    If you aren't saying sin isn't a moral transgression you certainly implied it.
     
    #110 Reformed1689, Mar 25, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are confusing two very different thing (from my perspective).

    I do not believe that a person has to be presented the gospel message in order to be guilty of rejecting God. So I believe that men are guilty regardless of whether or not they hear the gospel.
     
    #111 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 14:6. If they have never heard of Him, they can’t get to the Father, seeing He is the only Way to Him.
     
    #112 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  13. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Can anyone be saved without knowing the Christ existed?
     
    #113 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  14. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2006
    Messages:
    6,890
    Likes Received:
    262
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What about before Christ they never heard about Christ until He was prophesied. How were they saved then? or were they?
    MB
     
    #114 MB, Mar 25, 2019
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, really. I have never said that sin is not a moral transgression as evidenced by my insistence that moral transgressions are sins. I've said that I believe sin is more than just a moral transgression (I affirm the words of Christ when he speaks of sin as an enslaving power as well as a moral transgression).

    I also do not believe that one has to be presented the gospel message in order to reject Christ (this is my argument with @SovereignGrace ). Men are guilty even if they have not heard - this was Paul's point. They are even guilty of rejecting the "Godhead". But salvation is an entirely different matter. All men are guilty of rejecting Christ, and out of these men many are given by the Father to the Son.
     
    #115 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  16. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 31, 2015
    Messages:
    5,536
    Likes Received:
    1,026
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Jews knew He was coming. They looked towards the cross.
     
    #116 SovereignGrace, Mar 25, 2019
  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No. That is where I think that you have made a serious error. You seem to be suggesting that people who have not heard of Christ in terms of the gospel message are innocent of rejecting Him. But Scripture tells us that they have heard enough to be found guilty because even the Godhead is evidenced to them.

    Can you accept this verse: "For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse. Rom 1:20" or do you believe it without merit?
     
    #117 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Paul states that everyone knows that Christ existed....at least on some level. They are guilty. Do you deny the passage? That is what I want to know. Because if you can only accept passages that suit your theories then I do not see how a fruitful discussion can be had.

    That said, as I said there is a difference between what must be known of Christ to be guilty of rejecting Him and what must be known to be saved.
     
    #118 JonC, Mar 25, 2019
  19. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2018
    Messages:
    2,913
    Likes Received:
    94
    Faith:
    Baptist
    James 4 7
     
    #119 loDebar, Mar 25, 2019
  20. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    We are somewhat straying from the OP. I believe that John 3:18 in its context does not teach that the original cause for condemnation is unbelief. He is certainly teaching those in present unbelief are condemned already and that unbelief manifests that condemnation. But in context we must remember he is talking to Nicodemus and the original subject is the new birth (Jn. 3:3-11). The issue of belief is first introduced in verse 12 because Nicodemus did not believe in new birth (vv. 8-11). Faith in Christ is first introduced in verse 15.

    However, we must remember that new birth is the primary subject and everything else is consequential and secondary and introduced due to unbelief in new birth.

    The problem is not unbelief but the natural state of man which calls for new birth. Unbelief in Christ merely makes the condemned natural state of man manifest.

    The underlying cause for condemnation is not unbelief, but the fallen condition of man's heart which can only be remedied by new birth (v. 21). The underlying cause of condemnation is the inaiblity of the human heart to come to faith in Christ (vv. 19-20) which is due to the heart hating light and thus refusal to come to the light and loving darkness and that is the underlying cause for condemnation. However, the original cause for condemnation is neither unbelief or the depraved human condition but:

    16 ... for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
    17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
    18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;\

    This alone is the original cause for condemnation, not unbelief, not the fallen condition of the human heart which is the cause for unbelief, but the offence of one judgement came upon all men TO CONDEMNATION.
     
    #120 The Biblicist, Mar 25, 2019
Page 6 of 17
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...