TITHING, OH MY

I've skimmed thru here a couple of times, but I've not seen anyone respond to these verses posted by BobRyan

I also think these verses give us insight into Jesus' view on tithing:

Maybe calling it a "tithe" isn't the best terminology, because I believe we are called to give more than 10%. For Christians I think it is a good rule of thumb for a starting place.

I think not tithing is a control issue. I emphatically do not believe in prosperity Gospel, but God does say He will provide for all of our needs. By not tithing says you don't trust that God will provide, but instead that you have to do it on your own. I have heard countless pastors and Christian financial adivsers say that when people come to them with financial problems the first question they ask is people is do they tithe. The answer is usually no, and so they challenge the person to tithe. These people always say no one has ever come back to complain. Again, not prosperity Gospel, but I think tithing is kind of us "dying to self" and acknowledging that we believe God will provide. It is nothing magic, but get's our focus off of ourselves and on to God.

My experience has been that people who have trouble tithing are not financially generous people, they just would rather spend it on themselves. They have all sorts of excuses. I have even heard "it's too hard to calculate 10%"! I have also people say "I tithe my time". That is very good, but the church can't pay the bills on that! I think that you can "tithe" your time, but the reason someone says this is usually to justify not tithing at all.

Anyone who would like to learn more about God and finances, I would encourage to find a local "Crown" class to get a good Godly perspective.
http://www.crown.org/

The Barna Group has does a lot of research in following the trends of tithing, and based on their numbers, most here on the BB probably are not tithers.

The question should not be "how little can I get away with giving" but rahter "what can I do for you Lord!" (not that God needs us to do anything for Him, it is turning the focus off of us and onto Him. Any Missionary that has had to rely on financial support can likely attest to this.)

 

But you still haven't proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that its not required.

You also have not proven that giving under a command means that a person is "Less Cheerful". </font>[/QUOTE]Taz,

Whether giving in the NT is "required," we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the tithe is relegated to the Mosaic Law and since we are not under that law, it does not apply. Now the 10 commandments are also of the Mosaic Law. It says there that we are not to bear false witness or to lie. This is repeated in the NT (not in such words, but in terms of not lying). Hence we can be confident about the requirement of not lying.

But Paul said that he was NOT giving a command for giving in 2 Corinthians 8 and 9, and also that this was "his opinion."

I haven't really dealt with whether or not giving under a command makes one less "cheerful," I know. The point is that the principle is NOT to give cheerfully - that is the result of giving as Paul instructed: "each one should do as he has made up his mind, not reluctantly or under a sense of compulsion..." Now if we give because we feel that we are commanded to give, is that not giving under compulsion? If so, then we are not following how Paul instructed us to give.

Also, we are dealing here not with whether or not the NT tells us to give - it does. We are considering the tithe as a NT commandment - it is not.

FA

 

I added the numbers to your comments.

Regarding #1 above, that's not my point, as Jesus was a dealing with the old covenant. I contend that Paul and the other NT writers do not talk about the tithe at all - because it is from the Law.

Regarding #2 - see my last post. That's not what I am saying.

Regarding #3 - Yes - that is precisely what I am saying.

AndI also agree that the NT may indeed prompt people to give more than under the Mosaic law!

FA

 

@Faith alone
Faith without works is dead.

 

Jacob,

You need the entire passage in context.

In vs. 24,

"So then we see that a man is justified by works and not only by faith."

The "only" is MONON (an adverb), not MONOS (an adjective). Hence it cannot modify "faith" (PISTIS).

"Faith without works" is useless. Just to tell someone, "Be warm and well-filled" accomplishes nothing. But that does not apply to gaining eternal life, but growing in Crist.

Now, just how does "faith without works is dead" apply here? Are you saying that if we do not tithe that we are going to hell?

Just wondering.

FA

 

deleted

 

1 Cor 9:8
"Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn't the Law say the same thing? 9For it is written in the Law of Moses - you shall not muzzle the ox..."

When Paul needed to make a point he did not hesitate to make it through the Law. I just don't think Paul would agree with you. He uses the law correctly which is possible </font>[/QUOTE]Taz,

Paul was demonstrating - proving that he was not merely speaking from a human point-of-view. He showed that the idea of supporting those who labor among you was found in the Law. But that does not mean that Paul see us as being under the Law.

Maybe or Maybe not, but is it really that far off?

FA - Yes. I answered this in some detail in a post on page 3:

The principle is that we should each give as we have made up our mind. We should not feel reluctant to support those who are feeding us spiritually, and we should not give out of a sense of compulsion, but because we genuinely want to. When a pastor tells his flock that they should feel copmpelled to tithe in obedience to the Law and that if they do not that they are "robbing God," then I have a problem with what he's saying. How can those in the congregation get excited about giving in such a legalistic appeal? I would contend that it is the pastor who is not trusting God, but improperly goading his flock rather than appealing to the NT texts which teach on giving.

Look lets be honest here, I know we are NOT under the Old Covenant Law, but you cannot say that the principals of the law is not applicable to the New Covenant Christian. Jesus fullfilled the Law, not abandond it. He clearified whats most important, not "throw out the baby with the bath water". Mat 23:23 His correction did not involve deleting tithing, but focusing also on the "More important" things of the Law.

Also keep in mind that whenever Paul spoke against the cultural and legal regulations of the Law, it was in light of People trying to be saved by circumcision
</font>[/QUOTE]Taz,

The general principle that Paul extrapolated from the law of not muzzling the ox (which did only apply literally to oxen in the OT) he applied to those being taught the Word helping those who are teaching them.

And the burden of not being under the Law goes far beyond not being circumcised. When some Jewish believers came from Jerusalem and ate by themselves rather than associate with the Gentile believers in Antioch, Paul would not sit still for a moment. He did it for the sake of maintaining a pure gospel.

That is the same concern I have here - with tithing. once we confuse the applicability of the Law, we allow works to enter the picture, and people do get confused. We are born spiritually by grace alone through faith. We also grow by grace.

FA

 

Paul regarding God's Law and real Gospel justification.

 

quote:
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Originally posted by drfuss:
For so many years, churches have implied that if you don't believe in tithing, that you don't beliieve in giving. Of course, this is not true. It is hard for those under this influence for so long, to accept that christians should give cheerfully and not by requirement.

The N.T. teaches for christians to give cheerfully in accordance with what they can afford. Those who can give 30% should give it, and those who can only give 3% should give that. It should be given cheerfully, and not because a church requires it.

Of course christians should give to support ministers and the church. Some posts here imply that if you don't "tithe", you are not supporting the church. It is hard for some to accept "giving only" after years of misguided teaching.

We need to separate the two issues of tithing and giving. Tithing is by requirement. Giving is done freely and cheerfully. Many churches have tied these two together for so long, that people have trouble separating them. Tithing is required under the O.T. law; Giving freely and cheerfully is encouraged under grace.
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Sorry for the delay in answering the questions.

Tazman writes in response to above:

"Sounds very opinionated"

"Does your Minister have the Right to tell you to tithe and How much?"

My minister does not have the right to tell me to tithe since the scripture does not support requiring christians to tithe. The scripture admonishes christians to give freely and cheerfully. As to how much, we are to give freely and cheerfully and not by command.

"Is it possible to obey a command willingly and cheerfully?"

The scripture admonishes us to give willingly and cheerfully. Of course it is possible to give willingly and cheerfully. One who has trouble with this may have been giving under obligation too long so that he has lost the spirit of giving.

"Does some one have an unacceptable giving to God if they were told vs if they decided to give on there own?"

Not sure how this question relates to tithing. If you mean giving a tithe to God because they were told it is required, then this is misguided but not unacceptable giving. However, the blessing of freely giving is diminished.
If one has the option and the means to give 15% and he gives it, then his offering is 15%. On the other hand, one who believes he must tithe, has only given an offering of 5%. Of course one who can only give 3%, he can freely and cheerfully give the 3%. A minister has no scriptural basis for putting him under bondage by claiming he is robbing God of 7%.

 

Another aspect of this.

To some extent, this issue relates to whether one is a dispensationalist or believes in covenant theology. A dispensationalist should believe tithing is of the O.T. dispensation and not of the N.T dispensation. One of the tenets of covenant theology says O.T. laws carry over to christians unless the N.T. says the specific law does not carry over.

If you believe in covenant theology, there will be no convincing you that tithing is not applicable to christians. However, a dispensationalist should realize that tithing requirements only apply to the Jewish law dispensation and not to christians.

 

drfuss,

Some nice posts recently - and accurate. I would add that in this last post regarding dispensationalism that covenant theology says that the church has taken the place of Israel. They agree that we are not under the law, but would assume that other commands, not Levitical in nature, do apply to us as we have taken Israel's place in their view.

Some dispensationalists would agree with them that nonMosaic commands apply. I do. But since it can be shown that the Levitical Law does not apply to us, this argumeent should apply to covenant theologians and dispenationalists as well.

FA

 

Faith alone,

Thanks for the correction. Covenant theology is relatively new to me so I stand corrected.

drfuss

 

drfuss,

Well I'm impressed. It's rare to see someone in one of these forums admit that they don't know something or perhaps mis-stated something!

I don't know much of covenant theology either.

FA

 

I want to be careful how I come across with my view because I don't want to be taken as someone who thinks you shouldn't give at all!



The infamous passages from Malachi.

Malachi 3:8-10
(8 ) Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
(9) Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
(10) Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.


Instead of starting in chapter 3 look at 1:1;

Malachi 1:1 The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi.

So lets say I write a letter to my wife- "Dear Kathy, Meet me at noon at Friendlys and I will buy you lunch, Love Bobby".

Someone else gets my note and meets me at friendlys at noon and expects a free lunch. Everything I wrote was true, but to Kathy not you.

In like manner, I can learn much from Malachi, but I need stop as a member of the "church", (I Cor. 10:32), which is not the Jew(I Cor. 10:32),which is not the Gentiles(I Cor. 10:32) and realize the limit of application in my life. Malachi was writing Israel not me as a born again member of the NT Church.

Malachi 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.

When have you seen someone that didn't tithe cursed with a curse from the Lord?

You cant say the bill collectors are after him because he didn't pay his tithe...he didn't pay his bills like he was supposed to.

Thats called reaping what you sow, not a curse from God.

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Storehouse = A building for keeping grain or goods of any kind; a magazine; a repository; a warehouse. As in Josephs case in Egypt.


When was was the last time you heard testimony of someone who tithed that was at their wits end and couldn't handle all the blessings from the Lord?

--- Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

---2 Peter 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

--- I have been given the Holy Ghost, gifts of the Spirit, fruit of the Spirit, Everlasting life...etc all whether I tithe or not.

The blessings for those in Malachi must be earned by tithing.

In conclusion to Malachi a few things are true:

---The Jew was to tithe as a matter of the Law.

---The tithe was brought to one building, the storehouse. Only one, not one in each town.

---The tithe was food to feed the Levites.

---don't tithe and your cursed with a curse, do tithe and you wont be able to handle all the blessings.

Non of these things apply to us as redeemed children of God in the New Testament church!

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Leviticus 27:30-31
(30) And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORD'S: it is holy unto the LORD.
(31) And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.

The tithe was to be the fruit of the land and if you wanted to tithe cash instead then you had to give an extra 5th part (20%) on top of the 10 %...you never hear preachers preach tithing as 30%

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On and on it goes...

We have a work to do! that work will cost money, and it needs to come through God's people from God himself! So how should it happen?

A preacher condemning you if you don't give 10%?

Bake sale and chicken dinners?

Love gifts from the website viewers?

How about Children of God filled with the Holy Ghost giving more than was required from Jews under a Law!

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

We needed a better salvation and we got it through Jesus Christ!
We need to live more for God than Jews were required to by the law!

We have the grace of God ruling in our hearts and need to give so others can be saved by grace through faith in that same Christ we did!

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---So how?

2 Corinthians 9:1-15
(1) For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superfluous for me to write to you:
(2) For I know the forwardness of your mind, for which I boast of you to them of Macedonia, that Achaia was ready a year ago; and your zeal hath provoked very many.
(3) Yet have I sent the brethren, lest our boasting of you should be in vain in this behalf; that, as I said, ye may be ready:
(4) Lest haply if they of Macedonia come with me, and find you unprepared, we (that we say not, ye) should be ashamed in this same confident boasting.
(5) Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren, that they would go before unto you, and make up beforehand your bounty, whereof ye had notice before, that the same might be ready, as a matter of bounty, and not as of covetousness.
(6) But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
(7) Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
(8 ) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
(9) (As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
(10) Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness
(11) Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
(12) For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
(13) Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men;
(14) And by their prayer for you, which long after you for the exceeding grace of God in you.
(15) Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift.

It is my opinion that churches are filled with people who don't love him as they should, So they give according to that love.

Preacher require tithes because they know that the people would give less unless they were required to.

In churches that are actually accomplishing things for God a tithe wont do, there needs to be giving from people who have a purposed heart to love God and spread the Gospel.

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1 Corinthians 16:1-2
(1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
(2) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


--Pay your bills! If you don't you are stealing from those providing goods and services. (Ephesians 4:28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.)

--Take care of your family and lay up for the future! (2 Corinthians 12:14 & 1 Timothy 5:8 )

After you have taken care of what God commanded what you have left is prosperity, will you spend it on self or God?

PS. don't think that if you give God 5 bucks for missions he will give you 10 for your lust (common theology among TV preachers). When you give to God he will give you more so that you can give more to his work!

 

I know a couple who have given more in tithes and offerings than I have earned throughout my employment history. I would say that they were in the high middle income bracket during their later employment years. They have never wanted for anything, even though 30-40% of their income has gone to the church. Their home was bought with cash, as well as their car. They have a handsome bank account. When asked, they will tell you that they cannot outgive God. I salute their commitment and dedication.

That said, I believe the dispensational viewpoint to be correct. As for me, our happiest years were as a young couple who tithed. Now that we are retired, we only tithe from my home business income. We do not touch our Social Security checks for that purpose. From the latter we give freely, as he leads us.

Please don't make it an iron-clad rule. Just make sure that your local congregation doesn't have to operate in the red on borrowed money. Keep your heads above water.

Amen.