Word of Faith

Marcia,

Your name is the same as my sister's name.

Marcia, you have done exactly what the other writer has done. You have not dealt with my three paragraphs at the top of page 2. Dialogue with my ideas first, and then I promise to explain what I think about your list of ideas about Word of Faith, or at least what you say they are thinking.

Regards,
Ray Berrian

 

Why can't you speak to the errors or false doctrine of others? Are you such an ecumenist that your doctrine has become all-inclusive? You don't know what you believe any more, so you just beleive everyone, and accept everyone--error and all? If it is error why don't you speak against it?

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

2 Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

2 John 1:10-11 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2 Timothy 4:1-3 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

It seems to me that you are the one that is teaching antinomianism here. There is no law. There is no doctrine. Doctrine is sacrificed on the altar of unity. Let us all join hands together and forget about doctrine, right? It doesn't matter if Benny Hinn denies the trinity, and denies the deity, lets count him as a brother in Christ anyway, right? Don't speak against the heresies of the WOF movement; they aren't so bad. Let us just have unity. Forget about doctrine. Right? That is antinomianism my friend. That is what you have been preaching on this thread--no law; just chaos and confusion. "We can do whatever we want becasue we have no law, no doctrine, to hold us back--antinomianism. That is what you have been agreeing to.
But that is not what we believe. The one who believes in Christ and is eternall secure in him, believes that Christ will so change that person, that he will not desire to do those things any longer. He is new creature in Christ, with a new life in Christ. Old things are passed away; all things are become new. But if you don't have that new nature, only the emotional experiences of the WOF movement, yes, the result will be antinominianism.

I have been there lots of time. The people involved in the Charismatic movement are some of the nastiest people I have met. This is especially true when you try and show them (from the Bible) that what they practice is not Biblical. I once asked a Charismatic to show me how tongues was a Biblical practice from the Bible, and then handed my Bible to him. He got so angry at me that he accused me of being demon-possessed, and there in a very public place went into a wild rampage and tried to cast a demon out of me--all because I didn't believe in tongues. Yes, they can be very nasty indeed.

Why don't you take that reference in its context and find out what it is really talking about before you post it. Do your homework.
What did Jesus say about judging?
"Judge righteous judgement." He commanded us to judge.
"Ye shall know them by their fruits" That requires judgement.
Paul said: "He that is spiritual judgeth all things."
We are commanded to judge. You make judgements every day, without realizing it. If you see a piece of moldy bread in your house, will you eat it, use it in your sandwich, or will you throw it out? You make the judgement.
Peraps some starving Ethiopian make criticize you for your decision.
DHK

 

GUP20,

You mentioned that the Word of Faith movement teaches that God must dance to man's manipulation of the spiritual laws of the universe. Isn't that like casting a magic spell? The idea behind magic is to manipulate nature or the gods and get the desired results.

 

DHK,

The only thing I was saying was that if I believed what some other people have said about 'eternal security' as to 'a license to sin' then I would not believe in the faith of many Baptists and Presbyterian types. Someone will always be there to say that you, Rev. Copeland and I have error in our theology.

A lot of untrained people are trying to interpret the Scripture when they should be learning instead of talking. The Holy Spirit is our ultimate Teacher as noted in I John 2:27

Everyone interprets things in different ways, and that is why we have so many Protestant denominations. Everybody is their own authority rather than God's Word, the Bible.

The only way I would judge another Christian or denominational leader is to personally interview each one case by case. But to simply say that all people who believe in eternal security--also believe this is a license to sin are incorrect.

Allegations and accusations as to what other people believe do not count in 'my book.' Anyone who believes Jesus can take away sins [John 3:16]and believes that Jesus is Divine [I John 4:2] is my brother or sister in Christ, whether or not I accept all of their other myriad of alleged theological doctrines.

Hymenaeus and Philetus were saved men but they believed the 'resurrection' had taken place already and yet our Lord says He knows those who are in His flock [II Timothy 2:17-21].

Denominational leaders have a way of putting 'down' all other denominations except their own, which of course, is perfect in all matters of Christian doctrine and theology.

Jesus in His own words calls for Christian unity in John 17:11 desiring that we become one as Jesus is one with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Berrian, Th.D.

 

First of all this is the post at the top of the page (2) that unless answered you would not respond to two other posters on this board. Now that I have responded to it, I request that you go back and respond to Marcia's last post.

So then why would you. Do you believe everything you hear? Are you gullible? It seems like. We believe that the Bible is our only rule of faith and order. It has the final say. We also have documented evidence as to what variuos people like Benny Hinn and Copeland have: said, written, etc. It has been documented. But you fail to believe evidence. You blindly turn an eye and think that they believe in an orthodox Christian faith. Benny Hinn is no more saved than a Muslim. Neither one of them believe in the deity of Christ. They both believe in a different Jesus than the Jesus of the Bible.

Error or heresy? Again, I suggest you answer Marcia's post?

Trained by whose standard? Yours? And what would that be? I am not sure what the letters behind your name mean, if they have any meaning.
D.L Moody had a grade five education.
C.H. Spurgeon never had a college education, but started one.
William Carey was only a cobbler, and that is all. But he went to India and translated the Bible into more than 26 languages.
What have those letters behind your name done for you??

The Holy Spirit works through men. That is why he gave the church: apostles, prophets, pastors, evangelists and teachers. Each congregation was not left to themselves and the Holy Spirit. The New Testament canon includes the Pastoral epistles which define how there is structure in the local churches, and how pastors and teacherss have a duty to teach their congregations. God uses men. Please study the Great Commission in more detail.

"in different ways." Then someone is wrong. There aren't many ways. The Bible has one interpretation, and that is God's. It is our duty to find out what God is saying in any one particular passage of Scripture. And if you are wrong you are wrong. And believe me, Benny Hinn is more wrong than he is right. I am not my own authority. The Bible is my authority. I only believe what it says. I don't believe what Hinn says, because he doesn't believe what the Bible says.

I don't have to personally interview another person. To give you a comparison: Your conclusion is that you must believe that the doctrine of the J.W.'s is perfectly acceptable to you because you have not interviewed Charles Taze Russel. Correct? You cannot judge them until you interview him. This is what you are saying. But in truth we have his writings to judge him by, right?
The same holds true with Benny Hinn. There is documented evidence of quotes from him from interviews from TBN, and in various other sources. People are not deaf and blind. Hinn does not believe in the Christ of the Bible. His God is another god.

Hinn, Copeland and others in the WOF don't believe that Jesus takes away your sin. They believe that Satan paid the penalty for your sin. Open your eyes to their belief system. Do some research. Go back and read Marcia's post and answer it.

I don't believe in denominations. People in the spotlight who are leaders set themselves up jto be judged publicly by others for the simple reason that they are public figures. They need to be exposed publicly if they are spreading heresy publicly.

Jesus in his own words said to beware of false teachers. You shall know them by their fruit (false teaching). They come to you as wolves in sheep's clothing. Beware of them.
DHK

 

DHK,

I might be wrong but I think you see a false teacher in almost everyone that I might suggest as being a man of God.

As to the major cults like: Jehovah Witnesses; Mormons, Christian Science--these have long ago been proven as false religions.

As to the men who you differ with as to doctrine, I personally, have never heard them say anything that was 'way of the beaten track.' I must admit I do not like these men to say that we should 'believe God' for money, cars, and larger houses. This is not Biblical.

Money is given to us to meet our needs in this life time and to support foreign missionaries and their effort to spread the truth of salvation through Jesus Christ.

The Lord used simple Peter but He also greatly used the Apostle Paul who sat at the feet of Gamaliel. There is no premium on spiritual ignorance. Anyone can ignore studying and reading an remain stupid. True spiritual knowledge comes from the Lord of glory and He gives understanding to those who constantly study His Word.

As to my education, I doubt if you really want to hear how the Lord has used me in the past and even more so in my latter years.

 

I am sure you are quite capable of suggesting people that are not false teachers.

Benny Hinn has his own following. The WOF movement is a cult in itself. There are well documented beliefs. Why didn't you answer Marcia's post. I will post it for you:

I will repeat her question
Are these things Biblical??
The followers of these beliefs belong to a cult. These beliefs of the WOF movemnet and in particular Benny Hinn are well documented. It is a cult.

As you can see from the above quote, it goes much farther than the "health, wealth and prosperity gospel," which in itself is heresy.

No one disputes that. Hinn is a fraud and a liar and uses the millions that he defrauds his followers out of for other purposes than what he says. An $87 million dollar mansion in California overlooking the Pacific is not exactly "using every penny that you give for the work of the gospel." Or do you consder Benny Hinn himself "the gospel?"

Yes, spiritual knowlege comes from those who spend time in the Word, not from those who spend time basking in emotional experiences which may have their roots in the paranormal or demonism.
DHK

 

Lucky her!

I don't have to respond to your post because it's incorrect. This has nothing to do with criticizing another Christian denomination. The whole point is that WF has heretical teachings, so it's not another Christian denomination.

And it's not what I say they are thinking. It's what they say themselves.

Your post is called a red herring and is a logical fallacy.

All of the things I posted have been taught by at least some of the WF teachers; that is the issue.

 

Ray Berrian

It seems to me that your time could be more effectively spent either defending or refuting the 16 heretical beliefs of the Word Faith movement presented initially.

 

My experience with WOF folks is that most of them can't stay in it for too long...here's the timeline:

--Person becomes involved with WOF church or personality...many of these folks genuinely desire a relationship with God; unfortunately they pick WOF folks to hang around.
--Some "junk" happens in this person's life...cancer, a wayward spouse, financial problems...whatever.
--They are forced into an untenable situation: God, in WOF theology, would NEVER let a strong believer be sick, poor, or troubled. So, the person decides either...
--"My faith isn't good enough," "I'm speaking death," "I need to confess the word more," or some mumbo-jumbo like that, or...
--They bail out because God didn't respond like they were told He would...like a cosmic Santa Claus.

BTW, how is it that WOF preachers ever get sick and die...shouldn't they be rich, and live forever, since they "speak life and prosperity" so much?

As you can tell, I have no use for the WOF hogwash. I've helped too many Christians pick up the shattered pieces, and listened to too much junk from WOF folks that were completely clueless to how unbiblical their theology was.

 

Are you kidding? The Beatitudes are the most wonderful words of lifting up a person's self esteem that I've ever read. </font>[/QUOTE]The Beattitudes are a small part of the Sermon on the Mount...a beginning...an introduction. Later, Jesus went on to say the following to his Jewish audience:

Matthew 5:20

Uh Oh. All of the sudden, I am not feeling too good about myself because I am not sure that I really stack up to those guys.

v. 21

Amen, Jesus. Now, you are talking my kind of sermon. I feel better about myself already knowing I am not a murderer. BTW, speaking of those horrible murderers, why hasn't someone put that Morales guy down yet?

v. 22

Uh Oh. Not feeling too good about myself again. Hey Jesus...don't go into inspirational feel good writing, or don't try to be a self-help guru. Anthony Robbins you are not. I feel worse about myself now than when you began. You started out so well talking about those evil murderers, and I was even wanting to fly to California and take care of that Morales guy for you...and then you had to go and mess it up by pointing out that I am no better than he is in my heart. Hey Jesus...aren't you supposed to be making me feel better about myself and lifting my spirits here. You are becoming kind of a downer here.

vv. 27-30

This uplifting sermon is steadily going downhill. I am beginning to think that maybe this sermon isn't as uplifting as JohnV seems to think it is. What happened to all of those pretty words where Jesus was blessing all of us virtuous people. I am starting to think now that he might not have been talking about us. Who are these blessed people and how did they get that way?

v. 48

This sermon is not very uplifting at all. I don't think I can do that...

As a matter of fact, I know I can't:

Romans 3:9-18

v. 23

...at least not on my own accord or power:

vv.24-26

It would seem that it is through the power of God working through our lives that we are able to do these things Jesus discusses in the positive at the beginning of the sermon. I am beginning to think this sermon has much more to do with the lifting up and glorifying the power of God than it does the self-esteem of mankind.

v. 27

...as a matter of fact, I am now quite certain of that:

When I Survey the Wondrous Cross

To God be the glory that even though we were vile, filthy sinners, dead in our sins and at enmity with God, he conquered our pride and rebellion with his blood and saved us from our sin. If there is to be any esteem within us, it is because of what God has done for us...not because of anything that was within us on our own. To God be the Glory Alone (Sola Deo Gloria):

Five solas of the Reformation

Joseph Botwinick

 

What does it matter how we feel? It is the truth of the Word of God that matters. We probably tend to respond the same way Paul did...by rebuking and correcting false doctrine with Scripture:

Romans 6

Joseph Botwinick

 

By the power vested in me by my relationship with God I hereby name and claim $US 739.7 trillion ($AU 1000 trillion)! On receipt on these funds I shall immediately anonymously distribute every last cent into projects to proclaim the Gospel and end world hunger (I was going to add ending wars too but that is going too far )

 

word of faith draws people because it appears to be the gospel. I had no clue when I dove in that the base theology was so skewed. the leaders in the movement are smooth talkers, display godliness because they appear to be knowledgeable.

I heard Copeland say once that he really did not know the Bible that well, he left that up to his wife, Gloria - who I think can talk a better game. Kenneth appeals to emotionalism and most people are led by their feelings - this is why WofF has so much momentum going.

The constant barrage of "testimonies" is overwhelming - not to mention the wealth of the leaders. It's funny, but when you are in the middle of it all - it's very plausible what they say because they are rich - but you don't put together that they are using the "seed" as the "anointed" and therefore "deserve" the money - you know, the "laborer is worth double his hire".

the excitement, the glory and the power of the signs and wonders - the hype - the sensatonalism is like an addictive drug. you have to have more and more of it. the music, the confusion, the noise - is all part of the draw - it has to be God because it's SO GOOD. it has to be God because they use the Bible - the KJV no less - and they talk about salvation in Jesus Name, so they MUST be right.

As Paul stated - satan comes masquerading as an angel of light - he will have some truth and will confim that truth by signs, wonders, healings, sowing and reaping, etc - because that is how deception is hidden.

Has anyone noticed that ALL of these leaders use eye glasses - either all the time or for reading? Must be they don't have the faith to have their eyes healed - and such a "simple healing" I sometimes wonder if it's God's "joke". None are so blind as those who willnot see.

I have a list somewhere of the WofF and charis leaders that have died. None of them died from natural causes - oh surprise

Glad to hear you are there for the fallout I had someone guide me through treacherous water to safety as well. I will never stop telling people to get out of WordofFaith/charis/pentecostal/fullgospel/assembly of God for as long as I live. That is one huge mess of heresy. So keep on keeping on, bro

 

I believe in a word of faith. The Bible speaks of faith. The problem is the WoF movement has twisted the scripture or pulled it out of context.

Take Jabez for instance. The 2 verses in the Bible were a prayer and answer for Jabez. A modern author took that prayer and answer and said it was for the entire world.

Many preach prosperity and health through their faith ministries and somehow jump over the scripture that says 'Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the Lord delivereth them out of them all' The focus on the Lord delivering. Scripture does not say when the Lord will deliver them, so WoF preachers try to invoke a faith that will 'move mountains' immediately.

God does not have a time schedule like we do.

I believe in faith. I believe my faith in God's ability to take me out of my wheelchair in 1996. I coulld not have gotten out of the chair on my own. I tried many times, only to have to be picked up and put back in that chair. It was only after I trusted the Lord that I was able to get out of that chair.

Faith is real, folks. But we must remember that if we suffer, Christ suffered more. We must remember there is a time and a season for everything. If all were mountaintop experiences in our lives, would we be dependent upon God? Probably not.

I thank God for the many valleys, for in those valleys He restores my soul.

 

AMEN to that!!! If God chooses to keep us suffering for our entire life, that is His choice. When we belong to Him, He owns us. The problem is that many people believe that if they belong to God He wants them to be healed and wealthy or at the very least "favored".

If one is "favored" to suffer, is that less of a gift or a worse one? I don't believe so. Taking up the cross daily is how God chooses to do His will and purpose in our lives. Personally, I would rather suffer.

Faith is where it's at. As God says in Heb 11:6 - we must use that faith to believe that He exists and He will reward us. He gets to choose the reward and many times it is painful, but for His glory. Eternal life is the end result and THE ultimate Reward

 

standingfirminChrist,

I too have gone through some very difficult situations. It is human to want immediate deliverance from the tials of our lives, but as you say, the Lord's timetable and providence is different than what we might hope for in our lives.

Sometimes the trials of life can were us down as Christians but we do know He will remain faithful to us in all of our difficulties. Many times our trails are used to mature us in the faith--in our life of Christian sanctification. These make us stronger and keep us from being 'whining Christians.' He redirects us to His Word and to a more intimate relationship to our Lord.

Brother, I am glad you were able to get out of that wheel chair and still live a productive life. To the Lord be all the glory and praise.

Ray

 

You know what's so ridiculous? When word of faith christian use this one verse from the bible where Paul says he preaches the word of faith to defend their belief system. How silly is this? This proves nothing. Their belief system simply has been given this name "word of faith" this doesn't mean it's biblical.

There are a few things which are typical for WoF.

1)Man wanting to be like God. Does this remind you of something? "You can be like God..."
This thought that man can evolve and be like God or this whole "you are little Gods" stuff is so ridiculous. I don't understand why the christians do not stand up against this, why do they swallow this stuff?

2)Worship of faith.
It's so ridiculous when they want to turn God into a puppet who is bound by his own faith, meaning if God lost his faith he would be absolutely paralyzed. And they also believe that faith is something like a spiritual law by which even non-believers can operate and force God to give them whatever they want! How ridiculous is this???
I think it's in China where somebody has a mega-church and he teaches this absolutely occult stuff about the 4th dimension the same stuff Kenyon taught. He says that you can imagine something and then it's in the 4th dimension and then you can incubate it into this world, the 3rd dimension via your faith!
This is definitely occult. But christians fall for this stuff. It's really so concerning. WoF is actually an American phenomenon. Kenyon started it and then Hagin continued and this way it spread like a disease. But now it's even in Europe. I am so sick of this stuff. It's really like a disease which spreads and spreads and mingles itself with other doctrines. Even in my house meeting I see a lot of charismatic people which read books from american christians which have taken over parts of the word of faith beliefs.

This whole "God wants to heal us all right now and if you're not healed you simply have no faith" stuff is so way out of line. A sick person feels absolutely terrible when it hears something like this. "You simply don't have enough faith.."
This is inhumane! I feel like the word of faith christians live in a constant state of denial, this is the only way I can imagine that they are able to believe this stuff and at the same time see reality which is totally different. Not all word of faith christians are healed and rich. How do they do this? How can they see the reality and at the same time keep on believing this?
I really don't get it. In my house meeting there is a woman which really believes that if she prays for a sick person the person will 100% be healed no matter if the person has faith or not, because she has such a good relationship with God and God will do this for her!!
Imagine this. She really seems to believe this. But there was a sick person who she also prayed for and the person died. How can she continue to believe this stuff when she sees that it doesn't work? I really don't get it. This really concerns me. I think this word of faith stuff is pretty harsh and cold. I don't see much mercy in this theology. If you're not healed you lacked faith. This is so harsh. I don't like this at all and I do not want to have anything to do with word of faith.
Or when a word of faith teacher becomes sick it is NEVER a normal disease it is always an attack from Satan.....
This way they can justify being sick because it's not a disease but Satan himself. It's so ridiculous.
And the whole focus is on faith not on God, it's as if God was a puppet which cannot do anything without faith. God is souvereign he can also heal people which have no faith. I couldn't even stand this pressure when I imagine being healed or not being healed depends on MY ability to have faith! This is an inhumane pressure. I once tried to be healed after reading a book from Hagin about healing. He only said faith is available right now, we just have to claim it, we must not even ask God for it cause this would be totally impolite towards God cause he already offered it! So I tried it. I claimed my healing but I felt so insecure. I thought "what if I doubt? Then I mess up my healing" It was really terrible. I even threw away my medicine to prove to myself that I have faith. But nothing happened. The next days were a real nightmare it was totally depressing. I did not know what was going on. I felt so miserable. I felt like God wants to heal me so bad but I messed it up cause I didn't have enough faith. And then I gave up and went to the doctor to get new medicine.
This experience did not do me any good.
But the word of faith teachers today also notice that people are being pushed away by this and because of this they modify their teachings a bit. I think some of them even admit mistakes. They slightly modify it to reach more people and to take off the edge of this theology. Now they say "do not stop taking your medicine". But what if somebody prays for you and you don't feel anything? And then he asks you wether you are healed and you say: I don't know.
Then he'll say: You also have no faith.
And this leads people to deny their symptoms. They come up with this "who do you believe? God or your sypmtoms" stuff.
People have died from this! They died cause they stopped taking their medicine. This is so wrong and so distorted. I cannot believe God wants us to play this denying game. If I am not healed then I should be allowed to admit it. This really makes me sick to the stomach.

 

Those of you who know my testimony know that I was caught up in the WoF movement for about three years.

Please, I'm begging you, if you're looking into it, don't. Run away as fast as you can.

If you have a friend or family member who is in it or looking into it, please pray for them to get out.

Send them to me. I'd love to talk to them about it and go over the movement's beliefs as they compare to the Bible.

It has much more to do with Mormoism, New Age and Gnosticism than it does with Christianity and you just would not believe the amount of spiritual, emotional, financial, and personal damage I've seen it do to people, in addition to what it did to me.

I truly do believe that WoF is the end times false religion that the Bible talks about.

 

Hi Mike!
I'd love to read your testimony. Is it here on the board?

I think it's sad that so many christians are mislead by those preachers. When I became a christian I sometimes watched those preachers and thought they are so wonderful. I would never have come to the idea that what they taught might not be true. I also don't like their style to be honest. They way they talk, the way they raise their voices and do all this stuff it seems so unreal to me, so faked. But what's going on with these preachers? Are they evil or only deceived? How are we as christians supposed to know which preacher is false and which isn't? I mean when he can also do miracles then many christians think this has be from God but how shall we know that it really is?
How shall we know wether Benny Hinn is real or not? I think this is not easy and what also scares me is what happens if the holy spirit does something through a preacher and you think this is a false preacher and you're wrong does this mean you blasphemed the holy spirit!?!
For example there are manifestations where christians roll on the floor laughning or where they jump around like animals and this seems strange to me. What if you say "this isn't from God" but somehow you're wrong? Does this mean by saying that this manifestation which was from God was not from God you blasphemed the holy spirit and are doomed? This is really scary because if it's really this way then you better don't say anything at all cause it's way too risky to say anything. But this also opens doors for false preachers which can do whatever they want and nobody dares saying anything cause he's scared of maybe being wrong and blaspheming the holy spirit.