Roman Catholicism , cult or not?

It would have been correct to say that Catholics do not believe in justification by faith alone because of James 2.</font>[/QUOTE]My assessment and accusation is not wrong.
Your understanding of James 2 is wrong. The Scripture does not contradict itself:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
--We are justified by faith alone, not by faith plus baptism. That is a heresy of the Catholic Church. I maintain my position.

And the "elect" must get there through works--the work of baptism, and then they must continue to pay for their sins which Jesus could not fully atone for himself. They continue to be "purged" from their sins. Purgatory comes from the root word of "purge."

And there is scripture to say the elect will be "tested by fire".

</font>[/QUOTE]The Scripture used is taken entirely out of context and refers to the Judgement Seat of Christ. Purgatory is a man-made doctrine. There is no justification for it. There is no purging from sin in 1Cor.3:11-13. It is a judgement of works. Either your works will be burned, and you will suffer loss, or your works will be refined and you will be rewarded accordingly. The believer passes through no fire at all. Show me through Scripture where a believer passes through any fire of purgatory. This is a man-made heretical doctrine, that destroys the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.
DHK

 

I agree. You really should not mix error with your truth. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't. I have been there--been a Catholic for twenty years and therefore can speak from experience.
Likewise I have studied thoroughly the doctrine of the Catholic Church and continue to do so.
What you don't realize is that when you read the dogmas of the RCC, you don't fully understand them, for they have conveniently changed the meanings of many of the key doctrinal words which we use. For example "grace" does not mean "grace" as defined by the Bible. "Born again" is completely redifined by the Catholics, etc. You have to understand their vocabulary before you understand their doctrine.
DHK

 

the fact that the catholics believe one can be prayed out of purgatory is not faith alone salvation, unless one wants to say they ride into heaven on someone elses faith.

My Bible teaches that no man comes to the Father except through the Lord Jesus Christ, not that he can make it to God's eternal kingdom by another man.

 

This is an unfair assessment and certainly unchristian of you to call those of us who are dispensationalists, a cult..
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It doesn't go over very well does it? To be labelled a cult. Dispensationalists have murdered the coherency of the scripture and labelled amillennialists as being anti-semitic..I just read about 8 web sites saying exactly that..and even got it on here directly to me. He condemned the whole Anglican Church with the same brush.

Sometimes I like to use the shock factor and hope that something will sink in. Somehow I know nothing will change. The vitriol will continue to flow.

Cheers,

Jim

 

First of all I completely agree that we must love one another and that includes Catholics an non-Catholics. So no "exterminating" CAtholics and no raising non-RC armies to fight Catholics - no authorized church councils bashing Catholics as heretics no church canons demanding that we "exterminate Catholics" and then 'defending those decisions to this very day as infallible'

I would love it if the RCC had that same approach. No question.

I do not argue for NOT loving Catholic Christians - I DO argue for not promoting/defending the erros that tortured Christians for centuries!!

What are the "dubious sources" you refer to?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Still waiting for an answer.

 

I normally don't get involved in such topics but have something to say here.

What about Mat. 23:9? This may be a small thing to some but all verses are important to me.

Why is Jesus still on the crosses in RCC?

I have relatives by marriage who are RC and they will not set foot in my Church. I've heard them preach on several occasions and it was allways the same prayer, which makes me wonder if they've ever read there bibles or just believe what they've been told to believe.

Also, it's all most like having a personal relationsip with Jesus is never mentioned or should I say I've never heard it mentioned by
a RC.

This is America and you have a man made right
to practice your religion.

In Christ,

Johnny

 

I said heard them preach, what I meant was heard them pray. Sorry!

 

I believe that the fallacies/heresies in the Roman Catholic and similar communions are well described by the history of Israel as recorded in the Old Testament. That record is one of continual disobedience, apostasy, and the introduction of false practices into their worship. However, the Israelites had this going for them: they never invented an infallible papacy or a Mother of God. Even so Jesus Christ had some choice words for the religious leaders of His day.

Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

 

Heb 10 says He died "once for all TIME" and with His sacrifice put a stop to all sin offerings and sacrifice.

ONCE FOR ALL is a concept that would solve a lot of doctrinal error.

 

I am not sure what the amillennialism has to do with anti-semtitism. I was in an Anglican church once. The minister there didn't believe that the first five books of the Bible were written by Moses. He was a liberal and didn't know the way of salvation himself. I talked to the organist and asked him to play "What can wash away my sin, nothing but the blood of Jesus." He had never heard of the hymn. That is understandable since they don't believe in what they call a "bloody religion," one that involves the sacrificial blood of Christ, and his atoning work. I am not speaking of all Anglican churches. I am speaking of the Anglican church, its minister, and organist that I interviewed. But if that is representative of the whole, then what shall I conlclude?
DHK

 

I would say Catechism of Catholic contains many good teachings too, except some more controversial doctrines. However, when one religion is evaluated or judged, the fruits of them are important.

1) What did Roman Catholic do for preserving Bible? Throughout Europe, only a fraction of texts are remaining. Did they spread the Gospel diligently?

2) What did Catholic do with Inquisition?
Did Holy Spirit instruct them to torture and kill the heretics? Where was gone the teaching of Love Your Enemy?

3) Why did Crusade end up with Plundering, Raping, Killing Albigenes and Jews ? Was it following the Holy Spirit?

4) What about the Indulgence business?

5) Do Catholic still believe that Prohibition of Bible reading and possession was the right way, which was decreed in 1229?

6) Why do they pray to Mary who is dead and is not Omni-present at all,not Omniscient either, instead of telling the people to pray to God and Jesus Christ directly?

7) How can people get the justification from Purgatory by the prayers of the remaining relatives and friends? If they are saved by faith, having begun in Spirit, can they be perfect by the flesh or by works?

8) Catholic themselves claim, insist, and confess that their religion is based on Human tradition. Even though Peter never demanded or instructed or claimed, but RC borrow the name of Peter and they confess that they are not based on the Rock, the Only Rock, Jesus Christ ( 1 Cor 3:11, 10:4, 1 Pet 2:7-8, Deut 32:15, 18. They themselves vehemently deny that their religion should be based on Jesus Christ.

9) Catholic performs the Mass every week where the Priests ask God the forgiveness of the sins, but they never deliver the Answers from God to their people. The Answer of God is very clear, the forgiveness was already given by Jesus Christ when He cried "It is FINISHED"
I never heard the priests saying our sins were already forgiven at the Cross! Repeating to ask God to forgive again and again without believing that there is no other way of Salvation than what was done by Jesus Christ means the continuous rebellion against God, the priests never say this.

10) How is the Idol making business and Idol worshipping? How Catholic excuse and advocate it ?

11) What about the modern devout Catholics?
Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Himler, Eichmann, Goebels, more henchmen of Hitler.
What about Mother Teresa who said even anyone who believe in Hindu gods can go to heaven only if they believe their gods sincerely and faithfully ? What about Pope John Paul II who is resting in the bosom of Holy Mother Mary?

12) The rest of their doctrines are fine?
Compulsory Celibacy, Confession to Priests( not to God and Jesus Christ directly), Extreme Unction, Theotokos, Immaculate Conception, Assumption, Limbo, etc....

Catholic is a big shopping mall selling many products which are far different from Bible teaching or cannot be found in Bible.

Is Roman Catholic the same religion as True Christianity?

In my view, Catholic and True Christianity far different each other like East and West.

 

There are maybe two or three Roman Catholics who use this board. What is your point in ranting on and on, page after page, forum after forum, against the RC Church? I don't get it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I agree this is no longer a very good place to increase your understanding of the list of "Effective" arguments against the doctrines of Roman Catholicism since there is no longer a good way to "test them" and see what the "best response" is to them.

But the topic in this case need down degrade into an attack on Catholic Christians. It can still serve as a review of the RCC's role in history (the impact that false doctrine has had on mankind) and the degree to which the Bible addresses the doctrinal "inventions" of the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

A Cult is a group who tries to get it's members to become isolated from the rest of the world and discourages them from investigating anything outside of their own groups beliefs, for fear they might lose the members.

The word "Cult" has been abused so much that now "Cult" becomes "any religion that disagrees with my own". And many Christians throw the word "Cult" around in order to instill fear into people's minds about a Church, which saves them the trouble of actually having to PROVE that a Church's teachings are unbiblical. Just say the word "Cult" and people scatter. Its a sorry and unfortunate tactic.

Jesus Christ and His Disciples were considered to be "outside of the Mainstream"... in His day.

Just because some church is "considered to be" this and that... does not make it so in the eyes of God.

I believe the Roman Catholic Church is way off the mark in many respects.

But then again most of the "Protest"-ant World who claims to "Protest" the errors of the Roman Catholic Church and their unbiblical practice of going by "tradition" instead of by the Word of God, have themselves become horribly entangled in many of the Roman Catholic Church's false doctrines which originated in Babylon's pagan philosophies.

...Such as the Sunday Sabbath, the natural Immortality of the Soul, and the Eternally Burning Hell. These false doctrines were adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and wrapped up in a new "Christian" package and the Christian Church has accepted it's falsehoods as "Gospel Truth" even though these teachings have no place in Scripture.


Martin Luther, the "Original Protestant" knew these teachings were false.


The Great Controversy, page 549
Chapter Title: The First Great Deception
The theory of the immortality of the soul was one of those false doctrines that Rome, borrowing from paganism, incorporated into the religion of Christendom. Martin Luther classed it with the "monstrous fables that form part of the Roman dunghill of decretals."--E. Petavel, The Problem of Immortality, page 255. Commenting on the words of Solomon in Ecclesiastes, that the dead know not anything, the Reformer says: "Another place proving that the dead have no . . . feeling. There is, saith he, no duty, no science, no knowledge, no wisdom there. Solomon judgeth that the dead are asleep, and feel nothing at all. For the dead lie there, accounting neither days nor years, but when they are awaked, they shall seem to have slept scarce one minute."-- Martin Luther, Exposition of Solomon's Booke Called Ecclesiastes, page 152.


"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.


So it just bothers me that Protestants refer to the Roman Catholic Church as being a "Cult" when they have climbed into bed with her, so to speak.

And the only reason I am saying this is that so many on the Baptist Board are ever so willing to label the Seventh Day Adventist Church a "Cult" as well. And all we have ever done is seek to point out their errors.

"I have repeatedly offered $1,000 to any one who can prove to me from the Bible alone that I am bound to keep Sunday holy. There is no such law in the Bible. It is a law of the holy Catholic Church alone. The Bible says, 'Remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day.' The Catholic Church says, 'No; by my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day, and command you to keep holy the first day of the week.' and lo! The entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church. 'Priest Enright, C.S.S.R., Kansas City, Missouri.

I wouldnt even accuse the Baptist Church of being a Cult, because I think its a cheap shot.

And seriously, at least the Roman Catholic Church doesnt CLAIM to follow the Scriptures, they freely admit to going by the traditions of the Church. At least they practice what they preach.

Alot of Roman Catholics are very sincere Christians with good hearts and I am sure that once they realize their errors they will turn around. Some are just ignorant in their beliefs.

...But of course others are going to go on blindly, just doing whatever their Church Leaders tell them to do.

And its the same with many "Protestants" who have ignorantly been following Catholic Tradition with out realizing what they are doing. They will some day see the light and "Come out of Babylon".

...but unfortunately, others will not.


Revelation:18:

8:And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

BY CONTRAST:
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God , and the faith of Jesus.

NOT the commandments created by the Roman Catholic Church.

[ February 25, 2006, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

The thread would have no doubt ended long ago. But as long as their are posters that defend the doctrine of the Catholic Church there will be plenty of others who will oppose it. Most on this board beleive in "defending the faith," which includes exposing heresy.

Note to Alexader: Instead of defending the Catholic Church and showing us how it is not a cult as you so firmly asserted, you lowered yourself to calling Bob and others bigots. If that is the best argument that you can come up with, it is better that you don't post at all.
DHK

 

quote:
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Originally posted by Jim1999:
There are maybe two or three Roman Catholics who use this board. What is your point in ranting on and on, page after page, forum after forum, against the RC Church? I don't get it.

Cheers,

Jim
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The rare benefit of developing strong concise RC exposing presentations (in a Bible "friendly" and relatively safe environment) is now lost for this board. I grant you that. It is lost because of the fact that better understanding in any area of serious doctrinal differences can only be gained in an open exchange. That is even more true in the case of the RCC's failed doctrines. You can only discover the "best most effective answers" for Romans Catholic doctrines by actually trying them to "See" what the response is.

As for the fact that we have seen such benefit in the past here - consider this.

Often it is "supposed" that an effective argument will cause the failing side to simply "admit defeat". The truth is that this was almost never the case with the Jews vs Christ or the Apostles vs the world of Jews and Gentiles.

What is truly instructive is the point at which a substantive and objective argument is greeted only by circular, failed non-subtantive arguments that merely "gloss over inconvenient facts", ignore details and focus on trying to derail the topic away from the devastating argument being made. You have not "Won" your opponant at that point - but you have exposed a glaring weakness in their argument that even they are not able to answer. That confirms the path you have taken in your presentation.

That is the universal "sign" of a failed argument opposing the views you have outlined. Those who have leanings toward the RCC and yet are still "able" to objectively read the exchanges and able to recognize "the universal sign of a failed argument" have benefited.

As you point out - this board is no longer the place to test for that "universal sign" when it comes to arguments exposing the failings of the RCC.

 

That is good. Because they aren't. They follow the Scriptures.

Alright. I will agree. That makes them a false religion of the world, in the same class as Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc. The RCC is not Christian at all. As you say They don't claim to follow the Scriptures, the guidebook of every Christian. They, like Hinduism, are also polytheistic, serving more than one God. Mary takes on the same attributes as God. She is omnipresent, worshiped as God, prayed to, and prayed to all over the world as if she is everywhere at the same time. In the RCC there is more than one God, as it is in Hinduism.

Catholics have a different belief system when it comes to the substitutionary atonement for sins.

But then so does the SDA.
The Investigative Judgement just doesn't cut it with Scripture. Christ has already atoned for all of our sins.
DHK

 

You need to read a little Church History. Martin Luther was not the "original protestant" if by protestant you mean those who dissented from Rome.

 

Listen, people.

Our Lord did NOT go around calling people heretics.

He LOVED them.

He did NOT subject them to a detailed analysis of their theology.

He LOVED them.

He did not quote obscure texts, expound abstruse doctrine, demand people subscribe to them OR ELSE CALL THEM HERETICS.

He LOVED them.

He summarized ALL the Law and the Prophets by saying that being faithful is about LOVING God with all the heart and mind and soul AND LOVING our neighbors as ourselves.

He did NOT say that being faithful is about subscribing to the right list of theological propositions.

You're missing the boat. As St. Paul says, you can have ALL knowledge but without love you're just a noisy, clanging bell (and I would add - an annoying noise-maker).

I read your responses, and I ask myself: do I get any sense of LOVE from you? And the answer is easy: No.

Alexander

 

Perhaps not but He called them something perhaps worse:

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 3:19, 20
19. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.