Questions to the full Preterist

Eusebius, the "father of church history" (AD 265-340) reports that John was released from Patmos under the emperor Nerva (96-98).

[ November 28, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: prophecynut ]

 

2 Cor 4:4 is about Satan being god of this age not world.

The Bible teachs that God is Sovereign. The Scriptures show us that God exercises sovereign rule over all the physical universe, over plant and animal creation, over the nations of the earth, and over all individuals and angles, including Satan (Job 1:8-12).

Supposedly Satan is the source of all our trials, problems, and difficulties. That is Flip Wilson Theology.

God used Satan in the Old Covenant to carry out His will, as we see in Job. But Satan never did anything apart from the will of God. If Satan could act independently of God, God would not be sovereign.

Matthew 8:28-29 And when He had come to the other side into the country of the Gadarenes, two men who were demon-possessed met Him as they were coming out of the tombs; they were so exceedingly violent that no one could pass by that road. 29 And behold, they cried out, saying, "What do we have to do with You, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"

The demons understood the mission of Jesus - to destroy them. Notice the final words in this verse - "the time"­ presumably the time of judgment at the consummation of the ages.

Matthew 12:28 "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

All people are born under a curse. Problems in the world have nothing to do with demons, it is the Adamic sin curse:

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned

So I guess that your bad behavior is not your fault, you have a demon. So you don't need to repent, you need to see an exorcist.

Most Christians look for Satan and his demons to be destroyed in a future date when the earth and everything physical is destroyed. Perhaps a review of the scriptures will help clarify the matter:

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Remember, audience relevance! Ever heard of it? Do you think that the believers at Rome could have conceived of 2,000 plus years as soon? If it was to be some 2,000 plus years, how could He crush him under "their" feet? The people to whom this was written are dust now, they have no feet.

Paul told the first century Roman Christians that Satan would soon be crushed completely. If Satan is still around, than we have a problem with inspiration, which is a huge problem, because if the Bible is not inspired by God, it is of no value to us.

The Bible is explicitly clear about the judgement being at the end of the age, not the end of the world.

Satan was god of the old covenant age this is why he had power over believers in the first century, as with your interpretation Satan would be god of the church age, so which is it?

Matthew 13:40 "Therefore just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

[ November 28, 2005, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]

 

See above posts prophecynut.

Perhaps you would like to answer the question of whether or not Jesus lived into His 50's as Irenaeus said?

 

Grasshopper wrote:

No, I went there for a history lesson for you. You don't have to be saved to understand history.

As for your shortly notes, it was also said by Paul in Romans 9:28 that:

"For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness:
because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth."

That was over 1900 years ago Grasshopper. You see, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day (2 Pet. 3:8). But God will not strive long with man (Gen. 6:3), but will establish righteousness here on Earth.

Read this and then tell me with a straight face that this has already happened:

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any
should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?"

And your "world" in the Greek does not prove that Satan is not alive and still at work since he also is said to be the prince of the power of the air.

Do you and Jo$h believe that it is necessary to put on the whole armor of God?

 

Jo$h.
Nice straw-man argument on your Flip Wilson assertion. I never alluded to that. But it is evident that Satan is not bound in the world given all of the false religions in existance. That is his MO.

As is any anti-Jewish hatred. The reason that the Nazis hated and killed the Jews durring WWII is because they were Satanists conplete with Satanic rituals. That also is how that clown Hitler came to power in Germany.

But, we will have to agree to disagree on this since no one can produce him for viewing. Although I heard that he may be making some extra cash playing for the Buffalo Sabres.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/AUTHENTIC-CCM-BUFFALO-SABRES-M-SATAN-HM-JERSEY-L_W0QQitemZ8724665702QQcategoryZ2871QQcmdZViewItem

O.K., maybe a distant relative.

 

Jack,

You don't have to be saved to understand what the words shortly, at hand, and soon mean.

Rom 9:28 (ESV) for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay."

This is what we preterists have been saying to you for 44 posts now.

a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day (2 Pet. 3:8)

God is of course outside of time, we are not, that is why he tells us things will happen "quickly, soon, about to be, shortly, etc."

No it not necessary, we have the fullness of the Godhead dwelling in us, Read Isaiah 59:16-21. Christ is the armor.

 

Oh yea I forgot Satan plays in NHL, I think he plays for the Islanders now though. I guess I wrong

 

You are correct, in his 50's would be impossible, Jesus died at 39.5.

 

Different word, check the Greek. Perhaps somewhere in your Catholic History website you will find that the Bible was not written in English but Greek and Hebrew. So in order to compare words, you must use the language they were written in. Rev 1 uses the Greek word “shortly” that comes from the same family as these:


Heb 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty; with whom, if he come shortly, I will see you

Phi 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Think the Philippians are still waiting on Timothy to show up?

So the Millennial Kingdom could actually be just one day, correct? After all, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as a day. Not to mention the 1000 year days of Genesis.

Just because 2 Peter 3:8 is a statement about God(Ps 90:1-4) doesn’t mean when He communicates with His creation He is speaking in these riddles.

Well, why don’t we look at the words of those who are not full-preterist:

John Lightfoot
"That the destruction of Jerusalem and the whole Jewish state is described as if the whole frame of the world were to be dissolved. Nor is it strange, when God destroyed his habitation and city, places once so dear to him, with so direful and sad an overthrow; his own people, whom he accounted of as much or more than the whole world beside, by so dreadful and amazing plagues. Matt. 24:29,30, 'The sun shall be darkened &c. Then shall appear the 'sign of the Son of man,' &c; which yet are said to fall out within that generation, ver. 34. 2 Pet. 3:10, 'The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,' &c. Compare with this Deut. 32:22, Heb. 12:26: and observe that by elements are understood the Mosaic elements, Gal 4:9, Coloss. 2:20: and you will not doubt that St. Peter speaks only of the conflagration of Jerusalem, the destruction of the nation, and the abolishing the dispensation of Moses" (vol. 3, p. 452).


John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.
' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state
'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.).

And I did it with a straight face.

What it does prove is you were wrong on what you thought “world” meant.

prophecynout

So Irenaeus might be wrong on other things as well. BTW, where do you get 39.5?

 

Grasshopper.
You wrote this comcerning the word "short" in Romans 9:

So how then should it have been translated if not "short", and why?

 

I don't have a problem with it being translated "short".

suntemnō
Thayer Definition:
1) to cut in pieces
2) to cut short
3) metaphorically
3a) to dispatch briefly, execute or finish quickly
3b) to hasten
3c) a short word, i.e. an expedited prophecy or decree


suntemnō
STRONG
soon-tem'-no
From G4862 and the base of G5114; to contract by cutting, that is, (figuratively) do concisely (speedily): - (cut) short.

Perhaps the better question is what do you think Romans 9:27,28 is refering to? Since you believe it has the same meaning in Rev 1:1, perhaps we agree.

 

I Believe that Paul is saying that there will be a large number of Jews, but only a remnant will be saved. And as it says in Gen. 6:, God will not stive with man and his relentles sin for too long. So God will make a short work of the world before He ushers in righteousness.

He is long suffering. But not too long.

 

Jack,

Your response is exactly what preterists believe. God made a short work (cut short) and a remnant of Isreal was saved (True Jews vs 26). Although this should not make sense to dispensationalists since "all of Isreal will be saved"

 

Wanting to see what Grasshopper and others think of a not well known variation of full preterism, so starting a branch of the discussion in "Other denominations".
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3505.html?

 

Jo$h.
The "short work" that the Lord will make is the life of physical people on this Earth.

Speaking of God's timeframe, how do these verses fit into your timeframe?

"Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations (just like Mt. 24:21)." Joel 2:1-2

This prophesy came about 450 years before 70AD. How do you explain that given the fact that the Holy Spirit by Joel said that the time was at hand?

 

The context has nothing to do with life on Earth has we know it.

Gen 8:21 And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done.

God is not going to destroy the planet.

Rom 9:6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who are of Israel are these Israel. 7 nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children, but--`in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee; 8 that is, the children of the flesh--these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;
25 As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'"

Rom 9:26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'sons of the living God.'" 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,

The promise is not to the Seed according to the flesh, but a spiritual seed. Fleshly Jews had an opportunity to accept Christ and enter the Kingdom of God spiritually not through birthrite.

The remnant were the Jewish Chrisitans that escaped the destruction of Jerusalem.

Again context, context, context

Peter gives us an interpretation of Joel's prophecy "under the Holy Spirit" I might ad..

Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel: 17 "' And in the LAST DAYS it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;

Joel's prophecy was in the context of the "Last Days"

Matthew 24 Jesus said his prediction, taken from Joel 2-3, would be fulfilled in the fall of Jerusalem in his generation, Matthew 24:34. Therefore the prediction of the shaking of heaven and earth would be fulfilled in Jesus' generation.

Joel foresaw "the last days" Joel 2:28, 3:1 consummating in the Day of the Lord, 3:14, when the Lord would shake the heaven and earth, 3:15-16. The last days would be the time when the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit would be poured out on "all flesh" as a sign of that impending Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, 2:28-31. When "the last days" come "The Day of Lord" will be "Near".

 

Jo$h.
You wrote:

God meant that He wouldn't destroy the world with a flood again. He said nothing about fire...

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?" 2 Pet. 3:10-12

God is going to create a new heaven and a new earth where righteousness dwells. 2 Pet. 3:13

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Rev. 21:1

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be
any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
And He that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." Rev. 21:4-5

I don't suppose that even a full preterist can claim that this has happened yet.

But I'm sure you'll all try.

And your "When "the last days" come "The Day of Lord" will be "Near"..." quote in no way resembles what Joel wrote in chapter 2 and verse 1 of his book. It appears that when in Rev. 1 the literal interpretation of "shortly" fits you, you interpret it that was a literal short time frame. But in Joel 2:1 you do the two-step. Sorry, but it doesn't wash.

Let's revisit it shall we.

"Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

 

In the context of Gen Ch. 8, where does it say that God will not destroy the earth with a flood again? it says.. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. What did God do? He struck down every living creature, the context says nothing about a flood. It speaks of God never again striking down every living creature.

I think we preterists have explained what the new heaven and new earth mean in apocalyptic literature to you.

John Owen (1721)
'It is evident, then, that in the prophetical idiom and manner of speech, by heavens and earth, the civil and religious state and combination of men in the world, and the men of them, were often understood. So were the heavens and earth that world which then was destroyed by the flood.

' 4. On this foundation I affirm that the heavens and earth here intended in this prophecy of Peter, the coming of the Lord, the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, mentioned in the destruction of that heaven and earth, do all of them relate, not to the last and final judgment of the world, but to that utter desolation and destruction that was to be made of the Judaical church and state

'First, There is the foundation of the apostle's inference and exhortation, seeing that all these things, however precious they seem, or what value soever any put upon them, shall be dissolved, that is, destroyed; and that in that dreadful and fearful manner before mentioned, in a day of judgment, wrath, and vengeance, by fire and sword; let others mock at the threats of Christ's coming: He will come- He will not tarry; and then the heavens and earth that God Himself planted, -the sun, moon, and stars of the Judaical polity and church, -the whole old world of worship and worshippers, that stand out in their obstinancy against the Lord Christ, shall be sensibly dissolved and destroyed: this we know shall be the end of these things, and that shortly." (Sermon on 2 Peter iii. 11, Works, folio, 1721.)

Guess what God sees when He looks at you, He sees "Righteousness" dwelling.

Examples of Days of the Lord in OT and their prophetic context.

God predicted Edom's destruction at the hands of the Babylonians, Isaiah 34, in what sounds like the end of material creation. Earth was to burn and melt, the stars would fall. This did not happen literally of course. Edom was destroyed, Malachi 1:2-3. It was the Day of the Lord. God acted, therefore he came.

God was said to ride a cloud into Egypt in judgment. He did not bodily ride a cloud into Egypt; the Assyrians destroyed Egypt. But since God used the Assyrians he was said to come with the clouds, Isaiah 19-20.

Isaiah 13:6 Wail, for the day of the Lord is near; as destruction from the Almighty it will come! 7 Therefore all hands will be feeble, and every human heart will melt. 8 They will be dismayed: pangs and agony will seize them; they will be in anguish like a woman in labor. They will look aghast at one another; their faces will be aflame. 9 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with wrath and fierce anger, to make the land a desolation and to destroy its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of the heavens and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be dark at its rising, and the moon will not shed its light. 11 I will punish the world for its evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant, and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless. 12 I will make people more rare than fine gold, and mankind than the gold of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with none to gather them, each will turn to his own people, and each will flee to his own land. 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed in pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I am stirring up the Medes against them, who have no regard for silver and do not delight in gold. 18 Their bows will slaughter the young men; they will have no mercy on the fruit of the womb; their eyes will not pity children.
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans, will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.

Sounds like the earth is being destroyed isn't it?

Oh wait it's just Babylon. It's apocalyptic literature, figures of speech.

How many Days of the Lord are there? There are 26 Days of The Lord in OT. Days of the Lord need to be taken in their immediate or prophetic context that they are used in, and when they are fulfilled. There is only one final Great and Terrible Day of the Lord in the NT.

Joel 2:28 In it's prophetic context, notice when this will happen not near or shortly
Shall come to pass afterward acharey ken, “after this;” the same, says Kimchi, as in the latter days, which always refers to the days of the Messiah; and thus this prophecy is to be interpreted: and we have the testimony of Peter in Act 2:17.

I thought that dispensationalists interpreted the Bible "literally"

Preterists interpret time statements "literally" and apocalyptic statements "figuratively" dispensationalists do the opposite. So "shortly" does not fit in your paradigm so you do not interpret it in your time frame.

 

John Brown (1853)
" 'Heaven and earth passing,' understood literally, is the dissolution of the present system of the universe, and the period when that is to take place, is called the 'end of the world.' But a person at all familiar with the phraseology of the Old Testament Scriptures, knows that the dissolution of the Mosaic economy, and the establishment of the Christian, is often spoken of as the removing of the old earth and heavens, and the creation of a new earth and new heavens" (vol. 1, p. 170)

"It appears, then, that is Scripture be the best interpreter of Scripture, we have in the Old Testament a key to the interpretation of the prophecies in the New. The same symbolism is found in both, and the imagery of Isaiah, Ezekiel, and the other prophets helps us to understand the imagery of St. Matthew, St. Peter, and St. John. As the dissolution of the material world is not necessary to the fulfillment of Old Testament prophecy, neither is it necessary to the accomplishment of the predictions of the New Testament. But though symbols are metaphorical expressions, they are not unmeaning. It is not necessary to allegorise them, and find a corresponding equivalent for every trope; it is sufficient to regard the imagery as employed to heighten the sublimity of the prediction and to clothe it with impressiveness and grandeur. There are, at the same time, a true propriety and an underlying reality in the symbols of prophecy. The moral and spiritual facts which they represent, the social and ecumenical changes which they typify, could not be adequately set forth by language less majestic and sublime. There is reason for believing that an inadequate apprehension of the real grandeur and significance of such events as the destruction of Jerusalem and the abrogation of the Jewish economy lies at the root of that system of interpretation which maintains that nothing answering to the symbols of the New Testament prophecy has ever taken place. Hence the uncritical and unscriptural figments of double senses, and double, triple, and multiple fulfillments of prophecy. That physical disturbances in nature and extraordinary phenomena in the heavens and in the earth may have accompanied the expiring throes of the Jewish dispensation we are not prepared to deny. It seems to us highly probable that such things were. But the literal fulfillment of the symbols is not essential to the verification of prophecy, which is abundantly proved to be true by the recorded facts of history." (vol. i. p.200).

Sir Isaac Newton (1642-1727)
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the starts, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)

All the passages are in the context of the Heaven and Earth (Old Covenant) passing away, and the New Heaven and Earth being ushered in.

What part of "My Kingdom is not of this World", "The Kingdom of God cannot be seen with observation", "The Kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" do you not understand?

Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb. 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Do you take these passages literally?

[ December 10, 2005, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: Jo$h ]