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Predestinated = OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Mar 7, 2006.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Predestinated from the Foundation of the World.

    There is no time frame with God. He is Infinite. He speaks as though things have already come to pass. Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world. God seen it as already a done deal.

    Are you one of the called ? Who is one of the called ?

    Wow! It is a done deal from the foundation of the world! Praise Jesus Christ!

    Once called...also justified...Once justified...also glorified! Wonderful news! Predestined by God before the foundation of the world. Those called are saved and secured to glorification by God Himself! Predestinated [​IMG]

    Wow! God shall confirm you unto the end! Blameless! Praise Jesus!

    These are only a small sample of scripture declaring the called in Christ, the saved, just to give you a taste of just what your salvation really means from God's perspective who seen before the foundation of the world those who He would call, justify, and glorify! All God's Grace. None, works of the called. Unmeritted, nothing of yourself!

    Would you look at that, given us in Christ Jesus before the world began! Predestinated. A done deal. OSAS! Praise Jesus! [​IMG]

    Predesinated by God. According to HIS good pleasure. HIS will. To the praise and glory of HIS Grace. Sealing you with the Holy Spirit of promise!

    Now how could you deny the truth of OSAS by God's own will and good Grace? Determined before the foundation of the world. Those who are called are saved. Those who are called are predestinated for glorification! Praise Jesus! It doesn't get any better than this! [​IMG]

    And some wonder how anyone could believe in such a thing as OSAS :rolleyes: It is because it is ALL GOD. Give Him ALL Glory and ALL the credit and stop trying to rob Him! You are NOTHING without His long arm keeping you saved! :D

    God Bless!
     
    #1 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  2. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    There is no objective test for salvation.
     
    #2 billwald, Mar 7, 2006
  3. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    Sorry but you are wrong in that statement. Jesus said that a tree is known by its fruit and that we will recognize people by their fruits (Matt. 7:15-20). Read the Matthew chapter seven completely for the full context so that you will see that Jesus is indeed speaking about recognizing His followers apart from those who do not follow Him.

    So what are these fruits that identify a person who is saved (a born again Christian)? They are the fruits of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-26). Read Galatians 5:16-26 for the full context.

    John 15:1-17 teaches us that all born-again Christians who abide in Christ, and have Him abiding in them, will bear fruit because He commands it (see John 15:16). Thus, the objective test for salvation is found in the objective truth of God’s Word and His Word says that we shall know them by their fruits and gives us a list of those fruits. If someone professes to be a Christian but is not producing the fruits of the Spirit listed in Galatians 5, then we need to pray for them and witness to them in order to bring them to Christ.
     
    #3 Bible-boy, Mar 7, 2006
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    It's fairly inevitable IMO that if one is a Calvinist, one also must believe in OSAS (it is the I and the P of TULIP after all) and be fully monergist in one's soteriology.

    Not that I agree with any of the above, mind [​IMG] ; it's all a recent invention of that Dutch chappie - Beza - even Calvin didn't believe it and he was borrowing from the gloomier bits of Augustine.
     
    #4 Matt Black, Mar 7, 2006
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I'm not sure about Calvin, I never read up on him or Calvinism. I heard that he believed one had no choice in the matter of their salvation. This of course is erronious, but the scripture is clear about those who have made a choice, accepted the call, believed, were regenerated, justified, glorified! We cannot ignore God's predestination for those who have come to Christ! It is right there in our Bible. [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
    #5 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Good points all! The scriptures are packed full of objective testing that we may "make sure our election in Christ".(2Pt 1:10)

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #6 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  7. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    so what happens when you don't "make sure of your election in Christ"?
     
    #7 eloidalmanutha, Mar 7, 2006
  8. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    OK, the test for salvation is continuing good works . . . not having "invited Jesus . . . ."
     
    #8 billwald, Mar 7, 2006
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black Well-Known Member
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    That sounds very Catholic, billwald!

    Steaver, can you clarify what you mean? If someone is predestinated to salvation, how can they have any choice in the matter?
     
    #9 Matt Black, Mar 7, 2006
  10. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "Making sure your election" is for your own well being and fruitful life. It is not God who needs to feel your election is sure. This is for you. Because I have matured to a level in Christ understanding that my salvation is secured by Jesus eternally, I can now go forward producing good works for Him and not be focused on myself (what will this do for me?). I know my election is sure! Christ has my soul hid in Him, now that I understand this, I can be more productive for Him.

    God Bless!
     
    #10 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    First keep in mind that "predestinated" is God's word and not some funny doctrine made up out of a parable or something.

    The scripture declares that God has "foreknowledge" and therefore has "predestinated" those who "choose" to trust in Jesus. God saw you receive Jesus as Lord before the foundation of the world and laid out your destiney in Jesus. Confirming you unto the end.

    God knew before the foundation of the world who would receive His call. Therefore He has predestinated these believers for justification and glorification. God's work in man, not man working with God.

    It is written! We must accept it. Can you interpret it any other way? Calvin had a hard time dealing with it. Most just choose to ignore it. Calvin missed the point that "whosoever will" is also part of God's plan for mankind and just because God knows the end from the beginning (foreknowledge) does not excuse man from making a choice for Jesus.

    Once in Christ, one is predestinated unto the end...1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ .
    1Cr 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #11 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  12. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

    God is all for you! Who can be against you?

    ........only you yourself by not accepting Him at His word.

    God Bless!
     
    #12 steaver, Mar 7, 2006
  13. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    "Making sure your election" is for your own well being and fruitful life. It is not God who needs to feel your election is sure. This is for you. Because I have matured to a level in Christ understanding that my salvation is secured by Jesus eternally, I can now go forward producing good works for Him and not be focused on myself (what will this do for me?). I know my election is sure! Christ has my soul hid in Him, now that I understand this, I can be more productive for Him.

    God Bless!     </font>[/QUOTE]that's all very good, but my question is what if you *don't* make sure of your election?
     
    #13 eloidalmanutha, Mar 8, 2006
  14. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    "Making sure your election" is for your own well being and fruitful life. It is not God who needs to feel your election is sure. This is for you. Because I have matured to a level in Christ understanding that my salvation is secured by Jesus eternally, I can now go forward producing good works for Him and not be focused on myself (what will this do for me?). I know my election is sure! Christ has my soul hid in Him, now that I understand this, I can be more productive for Him.

    God Bless!     </font>[/QUOTE]that's all very good, but my question is what if you *don't* make sure of your election?     </font>[/QUOTE]Jesus tells us in John 15 that He is the vine and we are the branches. The Father is the vine-dresser and He prunes the branches so that they will bear more fruit (John 15:1-2). Likewise, Jesus says that whoever abides in Him, and He in them, he it is that bears much fruit (John 15:5). Those who are in Christ will bear fruit. What fruit? The fruit of the Spirit given in Gal. 5:22-26. The simple fact is that all born-again Christians will bear such fruit. If you are not bearing such fruit you have not been born-again (saved).

    You are asking the wrong question. It is not about you making sure of your election. The question is are you bearing the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22-26)? If not, you need the gospel. The bad news: All have sinned and fallen short of glory of God (Rom. 3:23), and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23a). However, the good news is: The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Rom. 6:23b). What must you do to be saved (born-again)? If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved (Rom. 10:9).
     
    #14 Bible-boy, Mar 8, 2006
  15. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


    2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


    2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


    2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


    2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


    2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


    2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Now before you decide if "fall" here means "lose salvation", look up the word in Strong's. " ptaio "-to trip, i.e. (fig) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):-fall, offend, stumble.

    Phl 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling .

    Work it out. Do not stumble. Do not fail. For if you do fail then... these things mentioned above will not be in you, and abound, and make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    You will be unfruitful and unrewarded and will have failed the intent of your salvation which is to serve and honor Jesus Christ. Many will fail terribly at the judgment seat of Christ, having their lives laid bare before Him and purged with fire, but he himself shall be saved.

    Failing salvation is not losing salvation. Failing is one is not being all they can be/should be in Christ!

    And if you do not fall or fail you have good news...2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    You can go in "yet so by fire"(the skin of your butt) or go in "abundantly"! Either way, the born of God go in! [​IMG]

    God Bless!
     
    #15 steaver, Mar 8, 2006
  16. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

    Now before you decide if "fall" here means "lose salvation", look up the word in Strong's. " ptaio "-to trip, i.e. (fig) to err, sin, fail (of salvation):-fall, offend, stumble.</font>[/QUOTE]Let's check out the full meaning of ptaio grk #4417

    1) to cause one to stumble or fall
    2) to stumble
    a) to err, make a mistake, to sin
    b) to fall into misery, become wretched


    Please note 2 b. pataio is from the root word pipto grk #4098. here is the definition of pipto:

    1) to descend from a higher place to a lower
    a) to fall (either from or upon)
    1) to be thrust down
    b) metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
    2) to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
    a) to fall down
    1) to be prostrated, fall prostrate
    2) of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
    3) the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
    4) to prostrate one's self
    5) used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
    6) to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
    7) to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
    b) to be cast down from a state of prosperity
    1) to fall from a state of uprightness
    2) to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
    a) of virtues
    3) to lose authority, no longer have force
    a) of sayings, precepts, etc.
    4) to be removed from power by death
    5) to fail of participating in, miss a share in

    According to Thayers, the definition of fall can mean loss of salvation. Also in Acts, the rendering of Ananias and Sapphira who fell down dead [judgment/condemnation] the word pipto is used in this case.

    Act 5:5 And 1161 Ananias 367 hearing 191 these 5128 words 3056 fell down 4098 , and gave up the ghost 1634 : and 2532 great 3173 fear 5401 came 1096 on 1909 all 3956 them that heard 191 these things 5023

    Act 5:10 Then 1161 fell she down 4098 straightway 3916 at 3844 his 846 feet 4228, and 2532 yielded up the ghost 1634 : and 1161 the young men 3495 came in 1525 , and found 2147 her 846 dead 3498, and 2532, carrying [her] forth 1627 , buried 2290 [her] by 4314 her 846 husband 435.


    Summary: it appears as though loss of salvation can be applied to the 2 Peter 1:10 verse - which is why I asked what if you "don't" make sure of your election. the hypothesis/context of the passage is that if you don't make sure of your election, you will lose it. I would rather err on the side of possible judgment/condemnation and remain humbled before God, than to risk teaching others they are in no danger by not "making sure of their election".
     
    #16 eloidalmanutha, Mar 8, 2006
  17. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    stevers wrote:
    Jesus tells us in John 15 that He is the vine and we are the branches. The Father is the vine-dresser and He prunes the branches so that they will bear more fruit (John 15:1-2). Likewise, Jesus says that whoever abides in Him, and He in them, he it is that bears much fruit (John 15:5). Those who are in Christ will bear fruit. What fruit? The fruit of the Spirit given in Gal. 5:22-26. The simple fact is that all born-again Christians will bear such fruit. If you are not bearing such fruit you have not been born-again (saved).


    John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered ; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

    Please note, the branch that was withered was "cast forth" or cast away - was in the Vine - they were saved, did not bear fruit, they withered and were cut off - like a dead branch and burned = loss of salvation.
     
    #17 eloidalmanutha, Mar 8, 2006
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    To say "according to Thayers, the definition of fall can mean loss of salvation" is a doctrinal leap! Look again at all of the outline you posted and tell me were you see "loss of salvation". You concluded this only because of your doctrinal position at this time.

    Absolutely not. The very context of 2 Peter 1:10 is clearly given... 2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

    Go back a bit further and read what Peter is teaching before he summarizes with verses 10 and 11...

    2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


    2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.


    2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;


    2Pe 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;


    2Pe 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.


    2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.


    2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

    Peter is saying absolutely nothing about condemnation-loss of salvation. This would be way out of context!

    God Bless! [​IMG]
     
    #18 steaver, Mar 8, 2006
  19. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Well it wasn't my quote but I will give two cents anyways. What if I bear good fruit for ten years and then stop? Am I then lost the day I stop? What if I start again, or would that be impossible because that would be like being born-again-again? What if I bear fruit for say sixty years and then stop, and two days later die, will I then be sent to hell? Just how does a believer apply this to real life in your views? I know there are many days I fail to bear fruit. Am I lost those days?

    God Bless!
     
    #19 steaver, Mar 8, 2006
  20. eloidalmanutha

    eloidalmanutha New Member

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    If Peter was not concerned that one could lose their salvation, he would not have said - make sure of your election - if one can fall from their election, they can lose their salvation.
     
    #20 eloidalmanutha, Mar 8, 2006
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