Featured Be killing your philosophy or it'll be killing you?

I think that we are often hard on the group of people to which we belong because we have an intimate knowledge of that group and see the issues associated therein. I typically associate with a Calvinistic minded segment when the topic tends towards soteriological predestination within Christian philosophy because this segment most represents my view (I’d lean towards Edwards on the issue, which would make me a bit left of center).

What I’ve noticed, both in the “real world” and on the Baptist Board is the extent to which Calvinists would comprise a group Scripture defines as “false prophets” or “false teachers” based not necessarily on their teachings but on their fruit. I am sure this is true of other camps and subgroups as well.

This does not mean these people are not saved. I have been guilty of producing poor fruit when it comes to interactions on this board and in other life situations. Christians are disciples who are on the journey of sanctification. Scripture reminds us of an ever-present need for repentance and belief.

But when the fruit betrays a disease in the plant that condition must be address appropriately. As John Owens wrote, “Be killing sin or it will be killing you.”

Francis Chan wrote that when we “submit to the leading and guidance of the Holy Spirit, He helps us become more holy—more like Jesus. It is a lifelong journey of putting our flesh to death, or as Paul puts it in Galatians 5, of walking by the Spirit and not gratifying the desires of the flesh. We cannot live submitted to the Spirit and at the same time gratify the flesh because these two “are opposed to each other” (Gal. 5:17). The works of the flesh are things like strife, fits of anger, dissensions, and idolatry. The works of the Spirit are things like love, self-control, joy, and faithfulness.”

Is this the effect of your position? When I look at Calvinism “on the ground” (rather than from academia) it is apparent to me that Calvinists have in a large part earned the reputation as hateful, prideful, and arrogant. But why does the doctrine produce such fruit?

As a whole are we a more loving people than non-Christians? Are we more forgiving to others? Are we more just a people? More peaceful?




(Reference: Chan, Francis. Forgotten God: Reversing Our Tragic Neglect of the Holy Spirit; John Owens, The Mortification of Sin; Galatians 5:22-26; Matthew 7:15-16 ; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 )

 

Calvinistic doctrine in itself does not produce the idea some men are valueless. This is evident through history (some of the most evangelistic men were Calvinists).

I suspect tge actual answer is in how men hold these doctrines. Spurgeon commented that to him Calvinism was the gospel. But in context of that statement he was expkaining that this was how he understood the gospel.

To some (many it seems) Calvinism is the gospel in a different way - an ungodly way that replaces Christ with ideas about the mind of God.

So my conclusion is that some Calvinists rely on human wisdom and philosophies to save then, believing they are saved through an acquisition of knowledge while not recognizing thus belief.

And this applies to some non-Calvinisrs as well. They bear ungodly fruit because they walk in darkness. Many will, I believe, hear those words "I never knew you".

 

Yes - Shaffer.

I can think of a very long list of godly Calvinists and non-Calvinists. I wonder why we have so many bad ones now. Why are the "heros" of the Christian faith (regardless of soteriological positions) heros of the past? Why this obsession with Christian philosophy when people are dying without the gospel?

 

We have to be able to take and discuss criticism and need to learn from what others have observed.

This applies to me as well. I studied theology and found it was very easy for me to get caught up in various views. I found (and still find) theological development and diversity both interesting and edifying. But, while important, it is not the primary concern of a believer or of discipleship.

Discipleship involves learning about Christ, granted. But its goal is to become more like him. This was not always my goal when debating other believers, but it should have been.

This is one reason that this thread has not focused on Calvinists. As stated, I use Calvinists as an example because in terms of the 5 points I belong to that category of Christian.

The OP is nothing but a call to self-inspection (not only to my fellow "Calvinists" but in general).

Looking back we see Christians of all "camps" contending for the Christian faith. More and more now we see Christians contending for their theological dispositions.

The crux of the matter is not how Calvinistic or Arminian one us, but how much like Christ they are. That is where we should set our eyes - upon Him.

 

Sorry I didn't catch this before.

You seem to be creating a false dichotomy. I hold to the doctrines of grace. I hold to the 5 points of Calvinism.

My questions are for me just as much as for anyone else.

 

I don't think that one can prove they are not hateful, prideful and arrogant except through action. And even here we are human, so the traits may not define who we are.

I think you may have misunderstood the premise. It is about how we (Calvinists and non-Calvinists) hold our philosophical views, our understandings, and our theological distinctive.

I also enjoy discussing the meaning of Scripture within the context it is written.

I am not sure who started on the premise that you are an "ungodly false prophet", but there is a "report" button at the bottom of the dialogue section. You should report the member (if it happened on the Baptist Board).

If you are implying that such issues (how one holds doctrine) should be taboo then I strongly disagree. But if you are simply saying that you are not inclined to discuss the topic then that is a personal decision. I think that it needs to be discussed. Like James White mentioned, we (at least I) cannot escape the label "Calvinist" because I hold to the doctrines of grace. But there is a segment within those who would share my view that are giving the whole a bad name. Are they the majority? I hope not. But their existence cannot simply be ignored.

 

That stated "he read it like I did"?

I can find it if you give me a few words. I am not sure what you think you read but it definitely was not me thanking the BB for silencing anyone (any member or former member). That just does not make sense to me.

 

Is this what you are talking about? (I think it is the one @canadyjd was referencing, although I think he thought I was calling all Calvinists ungodly false teachers):

 

@Iconoclast ,

This is getting very silly. You are a grown man trying to tell another man what he said. I can't even follow your conversation.

I can tell you that thanking the Baptist Board for silencing anyone does not make a bit of sense to me. For that alone I can assure you I did not post such a thanks.

I do not sleep type, but I have had dreams that I thought was real. Are you sure you were not reading while tired for fatigued?