SOULS DIE

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Amen, DHK! It doesn't say, "your whold spirit or soul, and body."

 

1Thes:4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


If you are in the grave after you die, awaiting the resurrection at the second coming of Christ and you come out of the grave when He comes, then it would seem kind of absurd- the idea that the dead are in heaven now.

Jn:14:3: And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


Claudia

 

By the way, "shall not prevent" means that those who are alive when Jesus comes at the second coming, are not going to be going to heaven BEFORE those who are dead in Christ...

Thats why it says we will all be "caught up together with them" in the clouds.

1Thes:4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Claudia

 

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

 

Petrel,

There is a HUGE point to this, more than most Christians realize.

The false doctrine that says we are naturally immortal originated from the pagan Greeks and was adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and passed on to many of the Protestants.

This was NEVER a Protestant belief.

The Great Controversy, page 549
[please do not quote from SDA material]

You see, if you believe man is naturally immortal, and you DONT believe what the Bible says, which is that we dont get the gift of eternal life, literally until the second coming of Christ, then this means you are able to talk to the dead. This is SPIRITUALISM, the very foundation of it.

1Cor:15:53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1Cor:15:54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1Tm:6:16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The very first lie told by Satan: "ye shall NOT surely die"... in the Garden of Eden to Eve.

Eccl:9:5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.


Claudia

[ March 12, 2006, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

In the very beginning of earth’s history, Satan, while in the form of a serpent, told the first lie to Eve. He told her that if she disobeyed the command of God not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, she would “not surely die, ” even though God had expressly warned her that “in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die .” (See Genesis 3: 4; 2: 17). Satan treacherously assured her that upon eating the fruit “your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods , knowing good and evil.” (Gen. 3: 5). Many still believe the devil today The Bible is quite clear that only God “hath immortality .” (I Tim. 6: 16). In fact, the Bible, on the other hand, contains a number of Scriptures that prove that mortal man receives not his immortality until the second coming of Christ— at the time of the resurrection. (I Cor. 15: 51- 55; John 5: 28, 29).

Now please note these unequivocal and authoritative pronouncements on the condition of man in death from Ecclesiastes 9: 5 and 10: “For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything .... Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.”

Many who read these Scriptures for the first time are startled. They immediately wonder why they had always believed that a dead person could speak to them if he so chose. Is this another error of the Roman Church? After all, according to the Bible, are not seances meetings in which the devil tries to send his deadly messages to unwary people through a human medium who is supposed to be able to communicate with the so- called spirits of the dead? The greatest of all seances in the Bible occurred when Saul went to the Witch of Endor , described in the Scriptures as “a woman that hath a familiar spirit”— that is, a woman who received messages from an evil angel who claimed to be the “spirit” of a particular dead person usually known to the seeker— and asked her to bring up Samuel from the dead since “the Lord answered him not , neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets?” (I Sam. 28: 6, 7). Since when does a man of God go to the devil for advice when the Lord explicitly said: “Regard not them that have familiar spirits,… to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God”? (Lev. 19: 31; see also Isa. 8: 19, 20). The Bible plainly states: “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence;” for when a man dies, “His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish .” (Ps. 115: 17; 146: 4).

So why do most people, both Christians and non- Christians, believe the doctrine of the immortality of the soul? The problem exists because of a misinterpretation of Scripture. In Genesis 2: 7, the Bible says: “And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life ; and man became a living soul.” The Hebrew word for “soul” used in this text is nephesh. Besides being translated 428 times as “soul” in the Old Testament, nephesh is also translated as the following: life— 119 times; person— 29 times; and creature— 19 times. “There is nothing in the words translated ‘soul’ or in their usage in the Bible that even remotely implies a conscious entity that survives the body after death, or that attributes immortality to it. Nephesh is not part of the person; it is the person!” (Bible Dictionary by Siegfried H. Horn, Ph. D., p. 1061).

The confusion stems from a misinterpretation of verses like the following: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12: 7). Many people use this verse in an attempt to prove that the “soul” or “spirit” is, therefore, immortal and goes to God at the point of death. But, if you look at Job 27: 3, you will find a Scripture that will help you understand that the “spirit” is simply the breath of life by which man lives, and which is only lent him of God, and at death goes back to the Great Author of life—“ All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.” The Hebrew word used here for spirit is ruach, which is defined in Gesenius’ Lexicon as follows: (a) spirit or breath; (b) breath of the nostrils; (c) breath of air. When the spirit, or breath of the nostrils, goes back to God, the body, made originally from the dust of the earth, now begins its process of going back to the earth as it was and ceases to function as normally, and the nonbreathing individual no longer exists as a living, conscious, thinking being, but will rest in the grave until he is called forth by the voice of Christ “at the last day.” (John 6: 39). “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice , And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation .” (John 5: 28, 29). The righteous dead will rise at the second coming of Christ and together with the living saints will meet the Lord in the air (see I Thess. 4: 15- 18), but the wicked dead will not rise until one thousand years after the resurrection of the righteous. “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” (Rev. 20: 5). How can someone “live again” except he has first experienced having died?

You may be asking yourself the question: “How can the Virgin Mary be alive when the Bible so clearly tells us there is no consciousness in death?” To further establish the point, let us look at a few more Scriptures that prove that man is mortal. In the Book of Job, we read: “Man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost [breatheth out; Strong’s Concordance], and where is he? As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up: So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more [the heavens roll back at Christ’s second coming (Rev. 6: 14)], they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.” (Job 14: 10- 12). And if that weren’t clear enough, Job continues: “If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come . Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee.” (Job 14: 14, 15). Obviously, Job believed that he would sleep in the grave until Jesus called him out on Resurrection Morning. (See also Job 17: 13- 16). After all, it was Jesus who spoke of death as a sleep when referring to Lazarus’s state. He never once implied that Lazarus had gone to heaven, but, on the contrary, said, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go that I may awake him out of sleep.” (John 11: 11). Then in John 11: 23, Jesus tells Martha, “Thy brother shall rise again,” and Martha responds, “I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” Jesus, in calling Lazarus from the tomb, said, “Lazarus, come forth (John 11: 43),” not “Lazarus, come up!” or “Lazarus, come down!” I believe that Jesus’ use of the word sleep is a very appropriate synonym when used in place of the word death (the first death), because the word implies a temporary state— a state from which every soul “shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt [the second death (see Rev. 20: 12- 14)].” (Daniel 12: 2).

The great teacher, the apostle Paul, clearly understood that he, too, would sleep in the grave until the second coming of Christ: “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure [death] is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day : and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His [Christ’s] appearing.” (II Tim. 4: 6- 8). Paul knew, as did Martha, that not until the resurrection of the last day, at the second coming of Christ, would he receive the reward of eternal life and be changed from mortality to immortality. Remember, it was Paul who told us in the Sacred Word that mortal man will not put on immortality until the last trumpet blast that calls forth the righteous dead at the coming of Jesus: “Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [for some will be living when Christ comes], but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [the Virgin Mary also], and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality [Please notice when this happens— not at death, but at the second coming of Christ].” (I Cor. 15: 51- 53). Earlier in the chapter, Paul stated: “But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [Adam] came death, by man [Christ] came also the resurrection of the dead . For as in Adam all die , even so in Christ shall all be made alive . But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at His coming .” (I Cor. 15: 20- 23).

To solidify this position, let us now look at the request of the thief on the cross, who was crucified next to Jesus as recorded in Luke, Chapter 23. The repentant thief, believing Jesus was indeed the Son of God, “said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when Thou comest into Thy kingdom.” To this request Jesus responded, “Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou [thou shalt] be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23: 42, 43). Those who believe in the doctrine of the immortality of the soul often refer to these Scriptures to prove that the spirit of the dead goes immediately to Heaven at the time of death. But let us take a closer look at Luke 23. First, we need to understand that the comma placed before the word “today” was supplied by the translators. If you place it after the word “today,” it would then read, “Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23: 43). Second, Jesus did not ascend into Heaven as He died, for in John 20: 17, He told Mary in the early morning of His memorable resurrection: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father .” It should also be noted that this statement was made two days after His death on the cross. Thus, the repentant thief was given, that day [Good Friday— the day of the crucifixion], the assurance of eternal life and a place in Paradise, but he, as with the rest of the righteous dead, would not receive his reward until Jesus comes the second time. (See Rev. 22: 12).

 

Is this a discussion about "soul sleep" aka conditional immortality, in which the soul is unconscious in the grave until the Second coming? Only a few groups teach that, such as Jehovah's Witnesses and followers of Herbert Armstrong.

 

I just wanted to add something here...

The Apostle Paul said we should comofrt one another with the following words when someone dies:

1 Thess 4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Unfortunately though, Christian Preachers, at Christian Funerals, comfort one another by telling the people that "Aunt Mable is in Heaven looking down upon us all and shes very happy there".

Well that is why you see on television all the time, and more and more lately, people by the graveside, asking their Aunt Mable for advice on what to do... talking to her as if she could hear them. And let me tell you, if they are getting answers it is not from Aunt Mable! It is from demonic spirits!


1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils


I had a neighbor one time who was also our Landlord, her husband died and she'd tell us these "episodes" of her dead husband coming to the foot of her bed at night and counseling her on what to do, etc...

Just remember Satan posed as an angel when Jesus was in the wilderness 40 days and nights.

2Cor:11:14: And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

This entire thing, this false Spiritualism doctrine is preparing the unwary to receive Satan's agents and Satan himself as "an angel of light" when they are going to do false miracles... but in reality demonic spirits will be doing the miracles...


Rv:13:14: And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Rv:16:14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Rv:19:20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Claudia

 

Hmmm.

When they teach that doctrine do they say it the way Paul does here?

 

"Who" are asleep according to Paul?

Is it the "dead in Christ"??

Yep - Seems like it to me.

 

When you clip your fingernail - do you call it "the dead in Christ"? Do you speak of your dead fingernail clippings as "those who have fallen asleep" while the real you goes on?

Just wondering.

Because I don't think Bible authors ever did that

 

I shouldn't wade in, but I will...

I think we focus on the wrong word referring to SOULS and death. The key word here is DEATH, not "soul." God's punishment for those who reject him is "the second death." So, does the soul die? A qualified yes, if you have the understanding of "death" as an unending existence without the blessing or provision or presence of God.

Now, for the passage:

1 Thess 4:
15: For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18: Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
(man, am I gonna get flamed for this one)...

I believe that the entity "time" is God's provision for man's understanding of what happens. "Time" is irrelevant to God. He is eternally eternal. Time binds us, but does not constrain God whatsoever.

When a believer dies, he/she is no longer bound by time as well. Thus, they are the "dead in Christ," who will rise at the last day, yet they are with God...not waiting for God's return, but with Him. We think in terms of temporality and linear processes...however, I think both of the following statements are true:

(1) The dead in Christ WILL rise at the last day (bodily resurrection of the dead); and yet,
(2) The dead in Christ are in the presence of God even now ("being absent from the body, and being present with the Lord").

I see both of those statements as true...it is that our temporally challenged minds cannot grasp them as simultaneously viable.

 

This is a false statement as it is taught from the Scriptures itself.

OK, I will agree. It is a Biblical belief which Protestants agree to.

Claudia, Quotes from the Great Controversy, SDA material are not permitted on BB, and will be deleted. Quote from the Bible and Baptist and/or standard Protestant sources. Your best route is to prove your case using sola scriptura. Besides that you have shot yourself in the foot since the author of the Great Controversy is Ellen G. White who lived from 1827 to 1915, and came up with your heretical doctrines. You cannot prove them using the Scriptures alone. You copy and paste Scriptures but fail to explain how they prove your point. The Bible teaches that the spirit will live on forever either in Hell or in Heaven. A 20th century false prophet comes up with a different idea. You tell me who has more credibility.

1. The Bible forbids talking to the dead; but it doesn't say it is impossible. It is called necromancy. It is practiced by many, including the Jews in the Old Testament who were condemned for doing so. If they were condemned for doing so, obviously it was possible.
2. If you don't beleive that we don't have the gift of eternal life then you are the one that disbelieves the Bible.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
--"IS" is present tense. It does not say "will be" eternal life.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
--It is; not it will be. It is present tense; not future. We have eternal life right now.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--Both verbs are present tense; not future. The evidence is overwhelming. The believer has right now, is in possession of, the gift of eternal life.

This speaks of the resurrection, not eternal life, per se. It speaks of a future event. Don't mix the two. The spirit lives forever. The body once it is raised will also live forever.

Again you are referring to the body not the spirit of man. This event refers to the resurrection. Don't get confused.

The word "immortality in this verse refers to both ends of the time line. God always was and always will be. That is not so with man. But man will live on forever, whether in hell or in heaven. There are two resurrections, and for a good reason.

Your point being? Do you believe this lie?

Ecclesiastes is the favorite book of cults for they fail to take the whole context of the book into consideration. Solomon looks at life from "outside of the box" so to speak. He looks at life as a man, a philosopher. He concludes as a philosopher that all is vanity. We know that as a Christian that is not true. For the unsaved it is true, not for the believer. To the unsaved there is no afterlife. That is Solomon's point. You must be aware of the context of the book.
DHK

 

Both the saved and the unsaved experience a conscious afterlife before the general resurrection but in different locations:

There was a rich man dressed in purple and fine linen, who enjoyed luxurious living every day. In front of his gate a beggar named Lazarus was placed, covered with sores, and hungering to be fed crumbs that fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried, and, while suffering tortures in hades, he looked up and from a distance saw Abraham with Lazarus in his bosom. So he called out, "Father Abraham, take pity on me and send Lazarus to dip his finger tip in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this fire." But Abraham said, "Son, remember that you enjoyed the good things in your lifetime while Lazarus had the bad things; now he is being comforted here but you are suffering anguish. Besides, there is a great chasm fixed between you and us, so that those who want to cross from here to you are unable; neither can they cross from your side to us."

He said, "Then I plead with you, father, to send him to my father's house, for I have five brothers; let him warn them so that they may not come to this place of torment." But Abraham said, "They have Moses and the Prophets; they may listen to them." He replied, "No, father Abraham; but should one risen from the dead go to them, they will repent." Abraham said to him, "If they will not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead." Luke 16:19-31 Modern Language Bible aka New Berkeley Version.

 

The point is, man will live forever. 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die' This does not mean literally cease to exist. It means separation. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a great example of showing that separation; 'there is a great gulf in between'.

The man who dies in his sin will go to hell and will be in torment. These are the Words of Jesus Christ Himself. If man is not in torment before the resurrection of the dead, then Jesus Christ is a liar. And we know He cannot lie.

Now, in the book of Revelation, we see something very interesting in the judging of the wicked dead. For in it we are told that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire first; then the wicked dead are cast into that awful place of burning afterwards.

If death were not destroyed in the lake of fire first, those cast in might just burn up (be annihilated)right away, and truly cease to exist. But we see death and hell being destroyed.

Yes, my friends, the soul does indeed live on for all eternity either in Christ, or separated from Christ.

 

Scripture?

Do the words "perish" and "destroy" mean to exist forever?

 

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

Do either of these words ever appear with "spirit"?

 

Scripture?

Do the words "perish" and "destroy" mean to exist forever? </font>[/QUOTE]John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
--This verse is not necessarily talking of the body. When the believer dies he has eternal life. In fact he has it now. This is what the verse teaches.

John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--There is not one resurrection, but two:
One for the just unto life eternal, and
Ond for the evil unto eternal damnation.
Man is not resurrected only to be burned or destroyed once again. That would be redundant. If there would be no eternal punishment for the wicked there would be no need for a resurrection at all. But the Bible says that there is a resurrection for the unjust.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
--The resurrection of the just takes place at the rapture. John sees thrones and them that sat on them; he sees those that had not bowed down themselves to the beast. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
--The rest (the unbelievers) did not live again (i.e. were not raised from the dead) until the thousand years were up, or after the millennial kingdom.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
--Thus the one who is raptured before the millennial kingdom is called blessed. He is part of the first resurrection. Death has no power on him. He will never die. Remember the believer has the gift of eternal life. He doesn't die. His spirit lives on forever. It is only reunited with a celestial body sometime in the future. What dies on this earth is this earthly tabernacle. We are spirit beings housed in an earthly tabernalcle which someday will be dissolved.

Revelation 20:14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
--All those unsaved will be resurrected and receive there one final sentence and be cast into the lake of fire and face eternal punishment--to be tormented day and night forever and ever just like the devil and the beast and false prophet.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.