Featured Neither Arminianism nor Calvinism

"For since by man came death....."

That is exactly what it says. Break it down how you see it doesn't.

 

Well that verse debunks your poor exegesis. Especially since there is no scripture that supports death having been at any other time before this.

 

Uh sure......"by man"

 

Quick question for your mind to consider: do you believe in evolution or do you believe scripture? The Bible says God created Adam on day 6 of the universe & told him not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good & evil. Do you suppose Adam was born foolish & grew up learning about the world or do you believe God created him as an adult with the knowledge of language, mathematics, etc... all the things he would need to live? Don’t you suppose God created him with the knowledge of what the first (and only) commandment was? Wouldn’t it have been shortsighted on God’s part to create him with all the knowledge of an adult, but without a capacity to understand, at least in a basic sense, how to obey the one & only commandment in existence?

Do you think Abraham understood the gospel of Jesus Christ fully when God preached it to him?

Do you think Isaiah understood all of his prophecies about Christ?

My thinking isn’t illogical, it’s Biblical which means it’s logic is above and superior to yours.

Romans 5:12 (NASB) Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--

 

No, you are absolutely wrong. No where in these verses does it say death existed... they say the exact opposite... that death didn’t exist, but that violation would bring it into being.

Genesis 2:17 (NASB) but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."

Genesis 3:3-5 (NASB) 3 but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'" 4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."​

I do object to your use of Gen 3, as you are quoting the word of Satan as your source of truth. But even if we took that to be true, it goes on to say “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened...”. This is the exact same language as Genesis 2:17 regarding death. So knowledge of good & evil and death are treated with the same, prophetic language.

Your interpretation that death must have existed before the fall is based on death being mentioned or prophesied by God prior to the fall. However, the knowledge of good and evil was prophesied in the very same verse - Genesis 2:17 - so by your own, flawed, illogical version of logic... Death was already in the world. And, therefore so must have been the knowledge of good & evil.

Genesis 3:6 (NASB) When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate.​

So we see here that Eve didn’t have the knowledge of good & evil, but desired that knowledge. This knowledge, which God spoke of in the very same verse that he spoke of death (Gen 2:17) was not yet in the world! This means that death also was not yet in the world. Logic is 100% against you & your position. Your position that death (and therefore the knowledge of good & evil) was in the world before the fall is antithetical to logic and reason. Genesis 2:17 & 3:3-5 actually prove that death didn’t exist before sin!

Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.​

There will be a second death because the first death (the first judgement) will be undone for all of the universe.

In Adam, there was a universal, corporate judgement of death. Not only did the curse affect Adam & Eve, but all of the animals, and the whole of creation.

Romans 8:19-22 (NASB) 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.​

Yet we see there will be a full & complete repeal of this judgement... both the righteous & the wicked will be resurrected. But what does John 5:8 say? The wicked to a resurrection of judgement!! There will be a second, individual judgement after Adam’s corporate judgement is repealed & all are resurrected. Therefore, for the unbelievers there will be a second, individual judgement of death.

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is slow to anger and abundant in lovingkindness, forgiving iniquity and transgression; but He will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generations.

Ezekiel 18:20
The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.​

Notice that numbers is The Law and speaks to what now is, but Ezekiel is prophetic and speaks to what will be. This demonstrates the difference between Adam’s corporate “universal” judgement & the future of individual judgements.

1 Corinthians 15:21-22 (NASB) 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

So we see here the universal nature of Adam’s death is reflected in Christ’s life. Adam’s universal judgement is repealed in Christ, leading to universal resurrection of both righteous & wicked followed by subsequent individual judgements with some being resurrected to eternal life & some resurrected to a second death.

See how Romans 5 treats the one sin (transgression) of Adam verses the many sins of the rest of us...

Romans 5:16-18 (NASB) 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.​

 

By evolution I’m referring to development over millions/billions of years from single cell, evolving from one kind to another until eventually becoming man.

So if God created Adam with his knowledge intact divinely at the point of creation, wouldn’t you submit that Adam’s divinely created level of knowledge was probably vastly greater than ours? That perhaps he had the capacity to understand what death was (at least as a concept) prior to experiencing it? Do you think we now have the ability to understand eternal life though we don’t yet experience it?

 

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants [seed in KJV] be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

Genesis 17:4-7 (NASB) 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants [seed] after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants [seed] after you.​

I will let Paul answer you:

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.

Galatians 3:16 (NASB) Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

Isaiah 54:1 (NASB) "Shout for joy, O barren one, you who have borne no child; Break forth into joyful shouting and cry aloud, you who have not travailed; For the sons of the desolate one will be more numerous Than the sons of the married woman," says the LORD.

John 8:31-44 (NASB) 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?" 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35 "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36 "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. 37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants; yet you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 "I speak the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father." 39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus *said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham. 40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do. 41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God." 42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me. 43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8:56 (NASB) "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

Romans 4:3-13 (NASB) 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.
​

 

The gospel message is simpler than you make it.

Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.​

According to Paul, the gospel message was preached to Abraham in one sentence.

But I'll answer your question.
Sometimes it's easier to see in the KJV:

Gen 15:5-6 KJV 5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.​

You asked me to cite the gospel as it was given to Abram in Genesis. This verse is exactly that. We know this to be true because God makes Abraham righteous for his faith in it. When God says to Abraham "so shall thy seed be" He was talking about Jesus Christ - Paul tells us this:

Gal 3:16 NASB 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

So when God says "so shall thy seed be" that seed he was talking about was Jesus Christ (according to Paul). It wasn't that Abraham believed any random thing that God told him and then God makes him righteous for it. God tells Abraham regarding the function and blessing of Christ and this is what "the gospel" essentially is.

I also posted Genesis 17;

Gen 17:7 KJV 7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.​

Again, according to Paul in Gal 3:16, this "seed" that is being talked about is Christ. Now I posted the context of Genesis 17:7 to show you how God changes Abram's name to Abraham (signifying new birth and a new creation) but then showing how the promise that he would be heir of the world was to Abraham and his descendants or "seed." It said he would be the "Father of many nations" (not the father of the one nation of Israel), and then Genesis 17:7 says that those descendants (again from the many nations) would inherit this promise... thereby inheriting the righteousness God gave Abraham in Genesis 15:6 for his faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I also posted Isaiah 54:1 showing that the "adopted" offspring of Abraham (which is what God is talking about when He makes Abraham the Father of Many Nations) outnumber the physical descendants.

This is also why I posted Gal 3:6-9 and Romans 4:3-13. This demonstrates that those who have the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are considered the adopted descendants of Abraham and thereby inherit Christ's righteousness which was given to Abraham in Genesis 15:5-6 for his faith in the gospel of Christ.

I posted John 8 to demonstrate that Jesus himself agrees with this interpretation as He condemns those Jews who don't have faith in him by stating their "father" is in fact not God and not Abraham, but their father was the devil... showing God views this kinship from Genesis as a spiritual kinship. Finally, Jesus confirms that Abraham did have faith in the gospel by stating "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

In Galatians, Paul talks about 2 covenants. The first is the covenant of FAITH IN THE GOSPEL, and the second is THE LAW OF MOSES. In Galatians 4, Paul compares these two covenants to the two wives of Abraham:

Gal 4:22-31 NASB 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking, for these [women] are two covenants: one [proceeding] from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him [who was born] according to the Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.​

Paul had just gotten done saying that the true children of Abraham (and therefore, those who inherit Christ's righteousness) are the Adopted children of faith, not the physical descendants. He quotes Isaiah 54:1 describing it's meaning as showing that the adopted children outnumber the physical children.

Gal 3:6-8 NASB 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Rom 4:9-13 NASB 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 8:15-17 NASB 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

Paul makes the point in Galatians 3 that the covenant of faith in the gospel of Christ came 430 years BEFORE the covenant of The Law:

Gal 3:15-18 NASB 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.​

So the covenant of faith was ratified by God himself in the latter half of Genesis 15 when God has Abraham split some animals in half, and then God passes between the halves as a pilar of fire. This was 430 years before the law of Moses was given, and Paul makes that point that a covenant, once ratified, can't have conditions added to it.

 

Gal 3:8 NASB
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, [saying,] "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU."

Not sure how you are missing this.

 

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. John 8:56

 

Rom 4:1-25 NASB 1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." ​

Says he Abraham was made righteous for his faith. But WHEN was Abraham made righteous? Was it when he offered up Isaac?

Rom 4:9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; ​

Abraham was made righteous for his faith in the gospel WHILE UNCIRCUMCISED. This is more than a decade before Isaac was born... and 2 decades before he offered Isaac on the altar. Abraham was made righteous for his faith (in the gospel, according to Gal 3).

11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ​

Abraham obtained righteousness for his faith in the gospel so that he might be "The father of all who believe." The first saved by grace through faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ. He may not have known the details, but he knew enough of the gist of it to be considered saved (made righteous) by his faith in the gospel of Christ. Notice it talks about his descendants being heirs of the righteousness Abraham obtained through faith.

14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, ​

The promise is guarenteed to Abraham's descendants - those with the faith of Abraham (faith in the gospel of Christ).

17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, [even] God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist. 18 In hope against hope he believed, so that he might become a father of many nations according to that which had been spoken, "SO SHALL YOUR DESCENDANTS BE." 19 Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah's womb; 20 yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. 22 Therefore IT WAS ALSO CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 23 Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 [He] who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification.​

Our faith doesn't make us righteous... our faith qualifies us as descendants of Abraham, and descendants of Abraham inherit Christ's righteousness. It is an indirect process. We inherit the blessing of Abraham.