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Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by wopik, Mar 10, 2006.

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  1. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

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    Here is Revelation 20:10 from The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament, by Robert K. Brown and Philip W. Comfort:

    AND THE DEVIL, THE ONE DECEIVING THEM, WAS THROWN INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND SULPHUR, WHERE BOTH THE BEAST AND THE FALSE PROPHET {ARE}, AND THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT INTO THE AGES OF THE AGES.

    "They will be tormented day and night into the ages of the ages" means they will be suffering forever and forever. This would not be true if one is turned to ashes and annihilated. Please also notice the future tense, "WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT." There is no annihilation of the wicked.
     
    #201 JFox1, Mar 18, 2006
  2. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Re 20:10
    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire. This is Satan's last battle. His time has come. The great deceiver is not cast into the bottomless pit now. The lake of fire is opened, and we discover there the beast and the false prophet, but they have gone whence none ever return. There the devil is cast in and locked up to abide with his allies in wickedness forever.
    The People's New Testament Commentary
     
    #202 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
  3. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We have already been through this argument ad infinitum. I already quoted you a number of translations that all said the same thing. Would you like me to quote you the Greek and make my own translation for you. Your argument makes no sense. The translation is correct. If it isn't correct then correctly translate the verse being faithful to the Greek text. Demonstrate your accuracy to the Greek text for us instead of childishly saying: "No it isn't; No it isn't; No it isn't! It isn't translated properly."
    DHK
     
    #203 DHK, Mar 18, 2006
  4. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    cool translations.


    KJV:

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet {are}, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    This is what I mean. "where the beast and false prophet {are}" seems to be a parenthetical.
     
    #204 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  5. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    I didn't say it wasn't translated properly, only that the italicized {are} was ADDED.


    That's all I said. The {are} was added. That's my only beef: the {are} was ADDED.


    And the {are} doesn't make sense, because humans burn up in fire like so much FAT (Psalms 37:20), and the Beast and False Prophet would not be their a thousand years later.

    That's why {were} makes more sense.

    ....where the Beast and False Prophet {were} -- a thousand years earlier.

    [ March 18, 2006, 09:48 PM: Message edited by: wopik ]
     
    #205 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  6. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    but you did say it wasn't translated properly. you said...

    "By merely using God's definition of what happens to human bodies when they are cast into fire, we can realize that they will be burned up just like so much fat on a hot stove (Psalm 37:20), and therefore the phrase in Revelation 20:10 should be translated "where the beast and the false prophet WERE.""
     
    #206 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The are was added to make sense of the verse. It isn't needed in the Greek but it is in the English. The following verbs are future tense.

    Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

    "and the false prophet...and shall be tormented..."

    And the false prophet what?
    Where the false prophet IS
    Where the beast and the false prophet ARE.
    One needs a verb to complete the sentence in English, but in Greek it is not necessary. This is not a matter of adding to the Word of God, it is a matter of clarifying what the Word of God says. Without a verb the translation would not make sense. Obviously the tense of the verb "to be" is are, the present tense, because the following verb, "shall be" is future, and tells what comes after the present, after what John is presently is seeing.
    DHK
     
    #207 DHK, Mar 18, 2006
  8. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    by your saying it should be translated where the beast and false prophet were, you are saying it was not properly translated in the first place.

    But God's own Son said torment was forever. If one is completely destroyed to where one is not existing at all anymore, then that one cannot be tormented still beyond the annihilation that you claim.

    Thereby making your philosophy foolish when compared to Jesus' own Words in Matthew 25.
     
    #208 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
  9. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    yes,

    {were} makes more sense than the ADDED WORD {are}.


    the {are} doesn't make sense, because humans burn up in fire like so much FAT (Psalms 37:20), and the Beast and False Prophet would not be their a thousand years later.

    That's why {were} makes more sense.

    ....where the Beast and False Prophet {were} -- a thousand years earlier.
     
    #209 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  10. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    NO.


    the {are} doesn't make sense, because humans burn up in fire like so much FAT (Psalms 37:20), and the Beast and False Prophet would not be their a thousand years later.

    That's why {were} makes more sense.

    ....where the Beast and False Prophet {were} -- a thousand years earlier.
     
    #210 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  11. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    Again, the three Hebrew Children did not burn up.
     
    #211 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
  12. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    standingfirm,


    Where is that "tormemted forever" in Matt. 25. I'm waiting.
     
    #212 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  13. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    they weren't hurt, either. God protects His own, anywhere.
     
    #213 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  14. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    God is still God.

    Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    Everlasting: aiwnioV aionios ahee-o'-nee-os

    from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

    Punishment: kolasiV kolasis kol'-as-is

    from 2849; penal infliction:--punishment, torment.

    Jesus did not lie. it will be perpetual torment that the wicked go through... not annihilation.
     
    #214 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
  15. JFox1

    JFox1 New Member

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    C'mon, wopik. The Greek text in the interlinear Greek English NT renders Revelation 20:10, ..."THEY WILL BE TORMENTED DAY AND NIGHT INTO THE AGES OF THE AGES." It's future tense! They will suffer day and night forever and ever. There is no annihilation of the wicked.
     
    #215 JFox1, Mar 18, 2006
  16. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    the second death (Revelation 20:14; 21:8), which is the final, irreversible death experienced by impenitent sinners. This means that the ultimate wages of sin is not eternal torment, but permanent death.
     
    #216 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  17. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    Were it not for the assurance of resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:18), the death that we experience would be the termination of our existence.


    It is the resurrection that turns death from being the final end of life into being a temporary sleep.


    But there is no resurrection from the second death, because those who experience it are consumed in “the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:14). That will be the final annihilation.
     
    #217 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Wopik,
    What part of shall be tormented day and night forever and ever do you not understand?
     
    #218 DHK, Mar 18, 2006
  19. wopik

    wopik New Member

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    It is Satan who is loosed from prison, goes out and deceives the nations, gathers them to battle and watches Gog and Magog be consumed and devoured with fire from God out of heaven.

    It is Satan who is cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and false prophet {are}/{were}, and it is Satan, an immortal spirit being, who "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
     
    #219 wopik, Mar 18, 2006
  20. standingfirminChrist

    standingfirminChrist New Member

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    And it is the false prophet who is in the lake of fire being tormented forever along with the beast and satan.

    You, by twisting God's Word to fit your interpretation of what happens to the wicked are falling in the category of the false prophet.
     
    #220 standingfirminChrist, Mar 18, 2006
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