Empty Professions of Faith

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tragic_pizza:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by billwald:
Then if your daughter ever recants you will change your theology?

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No, once she is saved she is always saved. Why would she recant? Why such hypotheticals? It is not as if we live in a terrorist land and she has a sword held to her throat with someone telling her: "Recant or I will behead you!"
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Yet. </font>[/QUOTE]It does no good debating speculating on things that could or could not happen. The Lord knows them that are his. Leave it there. I know that I am saved. What happens in the future doesn't matter; I know that I am saved and that is all there is too it. It would be well for some of you to read biographies of Richard Wurmbrandt, Adoniram Judson, and others who underwent untold sufferings for their faith and never recanted. Some weaker Christians may have. Peter denied the Lord. Was he still saved? Of course he was. You can sit here in your comfortable theological armchair and never face a whit of persecution. Until you know what it is like I don't believe you have the right to speak for those who have undergone it.
Christians in Muslim countries face this every day. Radical Muslims put a knife to their throats and tell them to convert to Islam or die. Some give in. They may still be a Christian inwardly but not wanting to face an execution right away. You may do the same thing under the same circumstances. Don't be so bold and brave (like Peter was) until you have been there.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Point taken. It's interesting to note that one of the ongoing discussions in the earliest years of the Church was how, and if, to readmit into fellowship those who had committed idolatry by burning incense to Caesar, as required by Roman law.

Peter's denial came, arguably, before he was saved... and I am not sure one who denies Christ is saved, but I'm not OSAS. It isn't, though, a disagreemnt that loses me much sleep.

I've met a guy who was hours from being beheaded for his faih in Saudi Arabia before the king bowed to US pressure and let him go. I can only hope I would be as strong in my faith in circumstances of torture and execution.

Originally posted by DHK:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:

So, was Peter's prior profession that Jesus was the Christ just an empty profession? If not, then eternal security cannot be true. For Jesus would have to have denied Peter before the Father at that point.

But if eternal security is true, then Peter was not truly saved beforehand.

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Not true. And the same is not true today. Put the question to yourself. What would you have done in the same situation. You would have been just like Peter you say. You boast, like Peter, I would never deny thee Lord. That is what Peter said isn't it? The fact remains that Peter did. You don't know how strong you are until you are put in that situation. Just because he denied his Lord doesn't mean he wasn't saved; it simply means he was under a lot of duress. Ask yourself this: "Did Peter really mean it from his heart?" What is the obvious answer? He wept bitterly and repented. He was sorry that it had ever happened. Does one lose their salvation every time they commit a sin. That would be the position you would be taking.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Interesting. Obviously, my salvation isn't lot or gained depending on how I get out of bed each morning, but I wonder if mere words are an adequate indicator of the salvation experience in any case.

Your daughter, obviously, is saved. That is undeniable. The question I have is this: was that salvation an automatic result of the mental assent to the idea of Christ as Lord, or the result of her subsequent devotion to Christ in her daily life?

I would say the latter, because that is, of course, where the real test of salvation comes. In the end, though, since the results are the same in her case, in your case, and in so many other cases, and since we know that profession is a vital first step in a life of devotion, I wonder what the difference between OSAS and non-OSAS is? Is the discussion one of assurance of salvation, or is it a discussion about at what point one becomes saved?

That's a serious question.

Originally posted by tragic_pizza:


I would say the latter, because that is, of course, where the real test of salvation comes. In the end, though, since the results are the same in her case, in your case, and in so many other cases, and since we know that profession is a vital first step in a life of devotion, I wonder what the difference between OSAS and non-OSAS is? Is the discussion one of assurance of salvation, or is it a discussion about at what point one becomes saved?

That's a serious question.

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The difference is in the reason why you are getting "saved."
For example, the first time she got saved under pressure of her Sunday School teacher who has a habit of pressuring people to pray and make a decision for the Lord. She "asked Jesus to save her" not for Jesus sake, but for her teacher's sake. If one prays to be saved, and the prayer does not come from the heart the words mean nothing. It is not the words of the prayer that save, it is what comes from the heart.

What must I do to be saved?
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
But that belief comes from the heart not just a mental assent, not just become someone pressured you into praying.

I heard the testimony of a pastor who didn't get saved until the age of 19. He had a similar testimony of getting saved at an early age of around 8 years of age. His mother was a Godly mother and her hearts desire was that all her children be saved. They had family devotions every evening. Her continual invitation to her son was to get saved. So one day he got "saved." He prayed the sinners prayer. But he did so only "to get his mother off his back." He didn't want the restraints of Christianity put on him. He wanted to have his fun and live for the world. Finally he got saved at the age of 19 when he fell under conviction of the Holy Spirit while visiting a Bible College.
Salvation is a work of God. It involves the Holy Spirit, the conviction of the Holy Spirit, the acceptance of the gospel on both an intellectual level (understanding it), and then believing it from the heart.

Faith is not mystical. Faith is confidence. It is based on facts (the facts of the gospel). Faith always has an object. The object is Jesus Christ. I put my faith in Jesus Christ confident that he will keep the promises that he promised in His Word.

He that hath Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life.

I have the Son; I have life eternal. It is as simple as that. That is OSAS. I am confident of the promises of His Word. A good example of this is given in Abraham:

Romans 4:20-21 (Abraham) staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Abraham was a perfect example of a man of faith. He was fully persuaded (had faith) that what God had promised he would perform. That is what faith is. It is taking the word of another that what he says he will do. We do that every day with our fellow man. We trust them. But because man is fallible, has a fallen nature, they fail us. God is perfect; He will never fail us; he remains forever faithful. That is the key to OSAS. God is immutable and cannot lie. He gives to us eternal life and cannot lie.
DHK

I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. I wonder if the chief disagreement between OSAS and non-OSAS is more a matter of definition than theology.

But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

isnt that clear enough for you all? obviously there is no such thing as once saved always saved. its a figment of your imaginations
It is what you WANT to believe.


2 Peter 2:
20: For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21: For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22: But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If we do not do these things listed, then our calling and election will not be sure and we will not be granted an entrance into heaven. And we show that we have forgotten that we were once purged from our sins. In other words, yet again, we are like sows who were washed and return to the mire.

Its difficult to believe that some Christians want so much to believe in this pnce saved always saved business that they just ignore these Bible passages.


2 Peter 1:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
If we do not do these things listed, then our calling and election will not be sure and we will not be granted an entrance into heaven. And we show that we have forgotten that we were once purged from our sins. In other words, yet again, we are like sows who were washed and return to the mire.

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Not so Claudia.
Why did you quote the introduction to Second Peter instead of First Peter??

1 Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Peter was writing to the elect, those who were OSAS. They could not lose their salvation. They were the elect of God. They were elect:
1. according to the foreknowledge of God. God knew it beforehand that they would be saved.
2. through sanctification of the spirit.
3. The purpose of our elelction is to obedience. It isn't obediece or works that save us. It is what we are elected or chosen to do after we are saved.
4. "And sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" As a Christian we daily get cleansed from sin by the blood of Christ. This is after salvation. "The blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin (1John 5:7).
Peter writes to the elect--those that were chosen before the foundation of the world. This is not Calvinism. It is based on his foreknowledge. He knew beforehand who would choose Him and who would refuse him.
DHK

If a dog got saved, it would no longer be a dog. It would be a new creature in Christ Jesus. Jesus was not speaking of one losing his or her salvation in the saying of the dog returning to its vomit.

good point, DHK.

One might also use Matthew 24 where Jesus said, "...if it were possible, they would deceive the very elect." The fact that Jesus said 'if it were possible' tells me it is not possible for the elect to lose their salvation.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
If a dog got saved, it would no longer be a dog. It would be a new creature in Christ Jesus. Jesus was not speaking of one losing his or her salvation in the saying of the dog returning to its vomit.

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#1. That is not exegesis
#2. If you wish to show how your view survives the text and show IN the text that the meaning can be bent as you suggest.