Featured Who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.—Ephesians 1:11

" according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

The elect, those that will believe on Christ, were placed within the body before the foundation of the world.
They were predestined at that point, because they were foreknown ( Romans 8:29-30 ).

This child does, by God's grace.

 

You guys have been posting this stuff for years, even though it is obviously false.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth, thus the elect were chosen on the basis of their faith in Christ.

No one was placed in Christ until after Christ died. If anyone would have been set apart (sanctified) in Christ, they would have been made perfect.
Heb 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

We agree that those set apart in Christ were predestined at that point, we just disagree as to when that occurred. The bible teaches we are set apart in Christ, during our lifetime, after we have lived not as a people. It is a lock.

 

You say, "false", I say, "true".
"Obvious" to you" is not "obvious" to me.

Let's look at the words carefully:

" But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 )

Breaking it down:

13) Paul is writing to the Thessalonians, and telling them that he is bound to give thanks, always, to God for them.
They are his brethren, beloved ( loved of God ) of the Lord.
Why are they beloved?

Because God has, from the beginning, chosen them to salvation through ( not because of ) two things...
Sanctification of the Spirit.
Belief of the truth.

In other words, their sanctification had nothing to do with them.
Neither did their belief of the truth ( this agrees with Philippians 1:29, that states that it was given to the believer, to believe. ).

14) Whereunto ( salvation, eternal life ), He "called" them by Paul's and the other apostles' Gospel...to the obtaining of the glory of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So, God choosing them for salvation did not rely on their faith or belief, but both were given to them as gifts...
Faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).
Belief is a gift ( Philippians 1:29 ), because anything that is given by God, constitutes a gift ( see John 3:27, James 1:17 ).

No one is chosen on their basis of something that God gives them...they are chosen on the basis of who He decides to have mercy and compassion on.

 

Assertions aside, I gave you the Scriptures that prove this.
Ephesians 1:4-5.

Precisely.
All true believers are perfected, spiritually.

By His one offering on the cross, He has perfected forever, them that are sanctified...not the whole world of men.

That, Van, is what separates us.

The Bible teaches, in Ephesians 1:4-5 and several other places, that the believer was set apart before the foundation of the world...not during their lifetimes.

I agree...it is definitely a lock, and it's called "election".
God chose Christ's sheep ( Psalms 65:4, Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:4-13, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ), gave them to Him ( John 6:39, John 6:65, John 17:2 ), and Christ will lose none of them ( John 6:37-40, John 10:28-29 ).

 

Ephesians 2

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

IN CHRIST. Everyone IN CHRIST joins God outside of time. Nothing says you were always elect. In fact scripture clearly points out To remember you were not in IN CHRIST. to remember NONE of the promises, convenants were yours. YOU NEVER had HOPE not even GOD.

If you had always been elect, YOU ALWAYS had HOPE, ALWAYS had GOD, ALWAYS had the Promise.

 

John 6.

32Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” 34Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.”

He is telling this to an entire crowd who will reject him. The offer of true bread of heaven is YOU the true bread from heaven.

John 6
27“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.”

THE advice to a crowd who will later reject him again universal and OFFERED.


So no man can come to Jesus unless given by the father......> IT WAS GIVEN in verse 32. GIVEN by the FATHER.

My Father who gives you
the Son of Man will give to you
gives life to the world

John 6
. 33“For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.”




John 6

51“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.”

52Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”

All these Jews argueing and grumbling.....They were all GIVEN. Already DRAWN, GIVEN and OFFERED.



So NO MAN can come to Jesus unless it was given by the father......IT WAS GIVEN --->My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven

Why did they all leave? Why did they reject something OFFERED BY GOD? Why did the DRAWN reject Jesus?

They did not believe.

 

Once again, a straight up nullification effort.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (NASB) 13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Analysis:
1) God has chosen you for salvation
2) from the beginning [of the New Covenant in His blood]
3) through - literally en used to show instrumentality
4) sanctification by the Spirit - The Spirit sets us apart spiritually in Christ
5) faith in the truth - presents the basis of God's choice, God crediting our faith in Christ as righteousness.

BTW, the gift of faith is a fiction, God credited Abraham's faith, his faith. If the faith had been given and instilled, it would not need to be credited.

 

Romans 8:29-30.
1 Peter 1:2.

Those that were foreknown were always "elect" ( chosen ).

" Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 but now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 and that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 and came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 for through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father." ( Ephesians 2:11-18 ).

I think you really should read the rest, Utilyan.
Also, please read Romans 11:7-32.

Again, salvation of individuals was determined before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).
The Gentiles being partakers of it with remnant Israel was foretold ( John 10:16 ), but the actual calling of them out of every tongue, tribe and nation was not until after Christ ascended to Heaven ( Acts of the Apostles 11:18 ).

Why didn't they believe?
The Bible tells us why...

" But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. " ( John 6:64-65 ).

" But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." ( John 10:26 ).

Scripture doesn't make it any plainer.

It has to be given to someone by God the Father, to come to Christ, otherwise they will not believe on Him.
They have to be "of" His sheep.

 

"but now in Christ Jesus." Makes it clear we were not in Christ.


"My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven."

Jesus makes it quite clear to group who would later deny him, That God actually offers Jesus to them.


Nothing about anyone being denied or the offer being witheld and not offered.


Calvinist Jesus would not have worded it this way. As the belief is God NEVER offered or intended Jesus to the "reprobate".

1 John 5 echos the denial that Jesus died for us is part of the problem. It was always God throwing the ball in our court to respond. And the failure to respond is belief and obedience.

Had the issue been capacity you don't need a whole chapter of writing to explain this to REJECTORS. But you could explain it all in one line. And even Ultimately doesn't even require explanation. It would be a matter of it is what it is no matter what.



God will save you if he likes you, damn you if he doesn't. <--- Look at that, isn't it beautiful? That is the entire perfect Calvinist gospel.

I'm not even God, and I can teach your entire teaching in one line.

 

Makes it clear that the Gentiles were revealed to Peter and Paul to be "in Christ".

Prophecy mentioned it in the Psalms and other places...
It was concealed in the "Old Testament", and revealed in the New:

" how that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" ( Ephesians 3:3-6 ).

Again, Ephesians 1:4-5 states that believers were chosen "in Him", before the foundation of the world.
For the most part, it was not revealed prior to Christ's first coming that Gentiles would be fellow-heirs of the gift of eternal life by way of the Gospel.

I agree...not in that passage there isn't.

But there's a whole lot more to God's word than that "verse" and others like them.
There's the ones you apparently take exception to, as well.

God saves according to His purposes, and His great love wherewith He loves His elect ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).

I'm looking at it, and it makes sense to me given all the other things He has to say about who, why and how He saves anyone.
He is perfectly within His right to grant gifts to whomsoever He pleases.

The perfect Gospel is,
"You are a sinner"
"Christ came and gave Himself so that whosoever believeth should not perish, but have everlasting life."
"Do you believe?"
" If you've truly believed on Christ, then you can trust Him to finish the work He began in you."

God did the saving.
Man did not co-operate...that is a lie.

The terrible truth is, that those that do not believe were justly left as they are...sinners facing eternal wrath.
Be glad you're one of the ones who have believed.

I agree...
You're not God.

I trust Him to do what He wants to do with me and every other person who has sinned against Him.
It is His right to pardon whoever He wants, and reserve the rest for punishment.

I cannot emphasize this enough.
Another thing I cannot emphasize enough is, who are you or I to reply against God?

 

I'd like to hear confirmation, to make sure I'm not misrepresenting your beliefs.

God will save you if he likes you, damn you if he doesn't.

^That is the entire Gospel of Christianity.

Can you tell the difference between your God's claim and Pagan god's claim?

Its no different its the same monster.

"His right to pardon whoever He wants"

I don't think You believe this. In fact you forbid him from pardoning everyone.


God command ALL MANKIND, Love God and Love neighbor.

God gives the command Love God and Love Neighbor. Does that mean he wants you to Love God and Love neighbor? YES OR NO?

 

You have confirmation, but there's a lot more to it than that.
The real Gospel is a lot larger than you've been led to believe, but at its core, is still the fact that Christ came to save sinners.

Perhaps first, you might consider that the "gospel" you've heard your entire life is in reality not the real Gospel...it is not "God loves everyone and wants to save everyone".
That's the "Adrian Rogers" gospel.

It's warped and does not include much of the bad news, nor does it include details that are just as much the word of God as John 3:16 and 1 John 4:7-8...such as Acts of the Apostles 13:48, John 6:65, John 10:26, John 17:2, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4-5, Psalms 65:4 and many others.


How the word of God gets used to develop both false gospels and the true one is an integral part of what's going on...
and I have news for you:
"God loves everyone" is not in the entire Bible.

Most people just think that's part of the Gospel, because preachers look at John 3:16 and assume that "world" means every man, woman and child who ever lived.
People think that John 3:16 covers every other "verse" like it's some sort of blanket.

Again, God does not lead with love...He leads with His autonomy ( Daniel 4:35 ), His holiness and His justice.
Following that is His mercy and kindness to those He decides to have compassion on ( Exodus 33:19 ).

For the record, He is well worth being feared and respected.

 

Yes, I can.

The Pagan god ( let's call him "Dagon" in the absence of a better name ) has the power of lies and illusion... those lies and illusions are designed to make people think that they can do something to get God to save them... while the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has infinite power and is beholden to no man.
He decides who to save, in His mercy, and nothing a man does or possesses can influence Him to save anyone.

Since we are all lawbreakers, criminals and rebellious, hard-hearted sinners who love our sin and hate Him for commanding us to repent, then He can do with us as He sees fit.
He can either pardon whom He wills, or cast any and all of us into just punishment.

That right there is the one thing I think you're having the most trouble with, Utilyan...
That God is God, and we are at fault, with nothing to stand on except His mercy.

To you He is, apparently, a "monster" that cannot be manipulated to get what you want.
To me, He is my loving Father who wields more power and influence than most of mankind give Him credit for.

He calls the shots, not us.

I call it like I see it.

To me, you are forbidding Him from pardoning whom He wants ( Romans 9:14-18 ), and acting according to His word in its entirety, instead of the parts people like to hear.

 

I agree.
But who exactly is willing to follow His commands?

No one outside of the born again believer.
Again, please see Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 for starters.

Of course ( that's a "yes", since it seems that you're looking for short and concise answers ), or He would not command it.
But that's the whole point of the Law, isn't it?
It is designed to make the believer realize that they cannot keep it in and of themselves...we are all abject failures at keeping His commands.

That is why we need a Saviour.
I would think you would have already realized that.

You are a Christian, are you not?
All Christians know why they need a Saviour, Utilyan.

Because without Him, we are fit for nothing but His wrath.
The Gospel is good news...but it isn't the good news without the bad news.

 

"For the record, He is well worth being feared and respected."

Sorry God built this one not to submit to pagan terrorist. Im not the nazi soldier who doesn't question orders and murders civilians.

1 corinthians 13
1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Which is why your distorted and evil interpretation of GOD and his gospel is nothing but noise.

 

God gives the command Love God and Love Neighbor. Does that mean he wants you to Love God and Love neighbor? YES OR NO?

You say "YES".

That means he WANTS and DESIRES ALL to LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. That means he wants all saved.

 

If He works everything according to the counsel of His own will, which He does ( Daniel 4:35, Ephesians 1:11 ), then if He wanted everyone to be saved, He would have it.

According to the gospel you believe, what is stopping Him from having that, Utilyan?

 

ALLAH, Zues, All ain't no different. The only reason you serve is out of FEAR, TERRORISM. You are not going to question. If the Devil was holding the GUN you would grovel at the devil and call him God even. You don't look at the character. Blind to whatever right and wrong. You ignore the voice of God that tells you to confront what is evil.

You think you can hide how you really feel from your idea of God. Fear is the deepest hatred of all. When its all said and done and you come to your reckoning God is going to hear the honest truth of your opinion. There isn't any love there, its just terrorism.

Your idea of God would slap you down for asking to clear up anything. A Tyrant who doesn't care about anyone.

"commanding us to repent,"

Since he commands EVERYONE to repent that means he WANTS everyone to repent. But you teach he is a deceiver that he doesn't REALLY want folks to repent.