question from agnostic

Non-Calvinism stinks.

 

Then why evangelize? </font>[/QUOTE]We witness to the lost because God told us to. What other reason do you need?

Joseph Botwinick

 

It doesn't make any sense for God to tell us to pray for people that are already destined for hell.

What does make sense is that those who call on his name shall be save.

Believe in thine heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved.

All those commands to go preach the gospel were given because man has a free will and can decide either way. Otherewise we would just be robots.

If God had decided in advance who was going to heaven and who wasn't then there would be no reason to even think about salvation. No matter what kind of life you lived you would wind up in heaven anyway!!

Sorry, that just doesn't make sense. But it does make sense if God gave man a free will(which he did) to decide for ourselves.

Otherwise there would be no reason to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, etc.

Calvenists begone!!

Have a nice day,

Tam

 

Basically, from what I learned years ago from the old CvsA battles here years ago, it can be looked at like this (though the Calvinists might not like the word "script"):

God has written a script of a world where the future is open, and in the story people have choice and if they believe the Gospel they are saved. But God is really the one who wrote everything that happens, as well as the means for it happening. So one Christian prays for God to save some people he knew of who he couldn't reach. God listened to him and then sends two other Christians their way. The first obeyed and shared the Gospel with two of the people, saying "...IF you receive Christ, you will be saved; if not, you will be lost...". It appears either has a choice, but that is only in the script. So one accepts Christ, the other doesn't. Another Christian doesn't obey, and passes another person without sharing the Gospel. That person dies without Christ. In reality, God had decreed from eternity that the first person was elect, and He scripted him into the world as the first person witnessed to, while the others were the "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction", who are punished for their "free choice" of rejecting God. That was all they could do, given their inability, but in the script, it was "freely" made, so they are now punished eternally for it. Also in the script, God had effectively responded "yes" to the prayer for the first person. But in reality, this was simply the "means" He used to accomplish in time what He had decreed from eternity (the others were an automatic "no" since they were not "elect"). The obedient Christians were thus "used by God" to bring one of His "sheep" "into the fold". God could have done it without them, but in this story, He wants people to be saved after responding to the Gospel, even though it is by his election rather than their response. The disobedient Christian was not used of God to win anyone, and will answer to God for that, but the person he neglected to witness to was not decreed to be elect anyway.

 

There is no such thing as a Calvinist or an Arminian.

 

Hello Jim1999, I see you've been around this forum for a while. This thread, like so many others I've seen here, started out so well with serious, thought-provoking responses. And then the irrationalists started chiming in with their pejoratives. Here's some of the ugliness I've seen already on this short thread:

Tam: I see no "cheers" in that!!
Tam: Emoticon of angry person banging head on wall
Tam: Doesn't that seem a lttle goofy to anybody?
Webdog: This is nonsense.
Webdog: welcome to the false doctrine of calvinism.
Hillclimber: Calvinism sucks.
Tam: Calvenists begone!!
Dustin: There is no such thing as a Calvinist or an Arminian.

So, Jim, how have you been able to take this type of banter for so long?

And what's more important, is that the OP is an important issue, which would be very helpful to many of us to have serious answers. But some are de-railing this into a mud-slinging freeforall.

 

God doesn't acknowledge Calvinists or Arminians, IMHO. If a Calvinist is a believer in the Word...then why not just be a believer, why be a Calvinist? Same for Arminians. I don't hold any label like that, I trust trust that He's who the Bible says He is, and leave it at that. Nitpicking is a stumbling block for some, Lord help us remember that.

 

I'm not trying to be ugly or sling mud, if that's what it seems like, I apologize. I think unbelievers who come here and see us argue these issues just get a bad impression. That's all I meant.

 

Thank you Dustin, point taken. Your post was pretty mild - I probably shouldn't have characterized it that way.

 

Thank you for understanding J.D.

Jim1999: I hear you, I'm just leary of some who might say "I'm a Calvinist." when they're asked what thier religious beliefs are. I'm not lumping YOU into that group, but I think that there are some who would do that.

 

#1. God's promises are all conditional!

#2. Read Genesis 6.

As a CAlvinist you have to ask yourself "Why is God CHOOSING to represent His views like this"?? Why does He CHOOSE to tell us "I looked and then I was SORRY I had made mankind"?

God CHOOSES to do this because God wants us to view His will and choice as completely in tune with events on earth and the decisions made in real life.

God COULD have said "OH my they have sinned again. What I shocker! I guess I will just slaughter all mankind as I planned to do from the start!"

(If indeed He had been wanting to convey Calvinism).

Instead of that the All-knowing God goes far out of His way to present this in a continued Arminian Model where God is interacting with the World and events. He shows Himself as taking responsibility for what He chooses to allow and not allow!!

Those who seek to stick God in a box -- are missing the point where he says "OH HOW Can I give you up?? ALL my compassions are turned within me!! Oh WHY WILL you die??!! As I live says the Lord I have NO pleasure in the death of the wicked!".

God "SO LOVED THE WORLD" that He gave -- yes "really"!.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi ya Bob.....

Long time no chat. Yet, somethings never change. This is not only your views that do not change Bob, but more then this, it is God that never changes. They have a fancy name for this, called immutable....or not ABLE to change. Oh yes...you BOB could change if you gave up your will and followed God. But still you want control of things. God is in control Bob...not you. He has always been in control. God will not change

Remember Dan 4?....lets look at it.

In Dan 4...it is if Dan gave the pen to Neb. Oh Neb had a lot of pride...look at the 1st verse..

1 King Nebuchadnezzar,
       To the peoples, nations and men of every language, who live in all the world:
       May you prosper greatly!

*****************
Its easy to have pride when you THINK your in control. Neb was a Great King...king of the whole land....none was greater then he....or that was his thoughts. He had made his great nation...and in slaved those that were against him. He was in control of the world.....or was he? Well...this is his story....look at the next verses..and he tells you that..

    2 It is my pleasure to tell you about the miraculous signs and wonders that the Most High God has performed for me.

    3 How great are his signs,
       how mighty his wonders!
       His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
       his dominion endures from generation to generation.

*************************
verses 2-3 were wrote after he was tought a hard lesson. In verse 2 in 3....he now KNOWS GOD was in control..and not him. But lets look at his story...

    4 I, Nebuchadnezzar, was at home in my palace, contented and prosperous. 5 I had a dream that made me afraid. As I was lying in my bed, the images and visions that passed through my mind terrified me. 6 So I commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be brought before me to interpret the dream for me. 7 When the magicians, enchanters, astrologers [a] and diviners came, I told them the dream, but they could not interpret it for me. 8 Finally, Daniel came into my presence and I told him the dream. (He is called Belteshazzar, after the name of my god, and the spirit of the holy gods is in him.)

    9 I said, "Belteshazzar, chief of the magicians, I know that the spirit of the holy gods is in you, and no mystery is too difficult for you. Here is my dream; interpret it for me. 10 These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous. 11 The tree grew large and strong and its top touched the sky; it was visible to the ends of the earth. 12 Its leaves were beautiful, its fruit abundant, and on it was food for all. Under it the beasts of the field found shelter, and the birds of the air lived in its branches; from it every creature was fed.

    13 "In the visions I saw while lying in my bed, I looked, and there before me was a messenger, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He called in a loud voice: 'Cut down the tree and trim off its branches; strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the animals flee from under it and the birds from its branches. 15 But let the stump and its roots, bound with iron and bronze, remain in the ground, in the grass of the field.
       " 'Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven, and let him live with the animals among the plants of the earth. 16 Let his mind be changed from that of a man and let him be given the mind of an animal, till seven times [c] pass by for him.

    17 " 'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

    18 "This is the dream that I, King Nebuchadnezzar, had. Now, Belteshazzar, tell me what it means, for none of the wise men in my kingdom can interpret it for me. But you can, because the spirit of the holy gods is in you."

Daniel Interprets the Dream

    19 Then Daniel (also called Belteshazzar) was greatly perplexed for a time, and his thoughts terrified him. So the king said, "Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its meaning alarm you."
       Belteshazzar answered, "My lord, if only the dream applied to your enemies and its meaning to your adversaries! 20 The tree you saw, which grew large and strong, with its top touching the sky, visible to the whole earth, 21 with beautiful leaves and abundant fruit, providing food for all, giving shelter to the beasts of the field, and having nesting places in its branches for the birds of the air- 22 you, O king, are that tree! You have become great and strong; your greatness has grown until it reaches the sky, and your dominion extends to distant parts of the earth.

    23 "You, O king, saw a messenger, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Cut down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump, bound with iron and bronze, in the grass of the field, while its roots remain in the ground. Let him be drenched with the dew of heaven; let him live like the wild animals, until seven times pass by for him.'

    24 "This is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree the Most High has issued against my lord the king: 25 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle and be drenched with the dew of heaven. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes. 26 The command to leave the stump of the tree with its roots means that your kingdom will be restored to you when you acknowledge that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, be pleased to accept my advice: Renounce your sins by doing what is right, and your wickedness by being kind to the oppressed. It may be that then your prosperity will continue."

The Dream Is Fulfilled

    28 All this happened to King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 Twelve months later, as the king was walking on the roof of the royal palace of Babylon, 30 he said, "Is not this the great Babylon I have built as the royal residence, by my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty?"

    31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes."

    33 Immediately what had been said about Nebuchadnezzar was fulfilled. He was driven away from people and ate grass like cattle. His body was drenched with the dew of heaven until his hair grew like the feathers of an eagle and his nails like the claws of a bird.
************************

WOW...it would seem that GOD indeed is in control. God had placed Neb as king and God brought him down. But let Neb say it in his own words......

    34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
       His dominion is an eternal dominion;
       his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

************************

this goes back to verse 2-3. But lets take the last verses real slow...ok?

    35 All the peoples of the earth
       are regarded as nothing.
******************
all people? all peoples are nothing? that means me and you Bob. Your not in control...God is

       "He does as he pleases"

****************************
He? who is He? He is God..and HE does as HE pleases...not as Bob pleases. (sounds like romans to me...right?) ok...so just how much is God in control? where is His power?...and where is it...that He does as he pleases?......

       "with the powers of heaven "

*********************

ok..in heaven...but that's a given...He is God. any place else?

       "and the peoples of the earth. "

*********************

and all peoples? not just kings? wait...does this mean you Bob?

       "No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done?" "

***********************
No one can say no? no one can stop His hand from doing as He pleases? NNE??? It would seem that this indeed is the case.

    36 At the same time that my sanity was restored, my honor and splendor were returned to me for the glory of my kingdom. My advisers and nobles sought me out, and I was restored to my throne and became even greater than before. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and exalt and glorify the King of heaven, because everything he does is right and all his ways are just. And those who walk in pride he is able to humble.

**********************

look back at 32...

"...until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes"

All men will someday do this. You may not want to do this now..for it means you...giving up control. But someday...ALL MEN will. God indeed is in control. You may claim...but this is for leaders only. Nope...ALL men.

But lets play that game. Kings...yes they are leaders. How about other goverment men? yes...also leaders. how about pastors? yes...leaders. how about school teachers? yes...they lead too. CEOs?...yes...they too are leaders. How about sunday school workers?. yes...them too. how about a teams...do they have leaders? yes.. andhow about dads? leader of the home? moms too? yes..moms. how about older kids...leading younger kids. Yes Bob..we are all leaders in some way. God sets all leaders in their place...and will take them down if He wishes. God is in control of ALL


In Christ...James

 

The truth has been bashed for ages. From the time the devil gave eve a apple...adam and eve were saying back them, they wanted to be in control. They wanted to know just as God. The devil told them they would be as God..and they wanted that. To this day...people want the same thing. They want God out of the picture so that they can control their own lives. Some fall so hard for this lie, that they bash others that have not.

" it doesn't make sence".....Nor does many other things...but it's in Bible. Belive it, even if you do not understand.

" its goofy"....what part? If its Bible backed it is true. If it is not Bible back...all things are goofy.

"its nonsence"......maybe to you. But God wrote it.

All it takes is for one to leave mans logic and read the Bible to know Gods will.

In Christ...James

 

I see. So you are saying that although "I may think" that I am making choices here -- the real truth is that God never could figure out a way for Him to still be sovereign and yet - allow others to make choices - so the truth is I am not really making a choice here at all! The real truth is that God is socvereignly in control and I am simply "imagining" that I am making choices -- ?? (in your view of Calvinism)

That means that as I point out - text after text in God's Word showing God to "So Love the World" and showing the blunders of Calvinism - it is not really "ME" doing it -- it is God! (SEE!! We agree on something! Finally!)

(At least if I am reading you right here about God really being sovereign and in control).

And "that" means that when you argue against my position you are not really arguing against "me" but against God Himself as He sovereignly dictates that I point out His Word in saying "God so LOVED the World" - just as His Word says that He repented that He "made mankind" in Genesis 6 -- (Hmm - maybe we can agree here too!!)

I thank you for that confession for how your view would interpret this situation.

By the way - I notice you never responded to the glaring gap in Calvinism that I pointed out regarding that statement in Genesis 6 -- Why didn't God make the CALVINIST case saying "I am going to wipe out mankind now just as I always intended to do - so no change here"??

Whe did He make the Arminian case instead - by saying "I am sorry I have made mankind" - AS IF His view changes or reacts to the choices of mankind??

BTW James it is good to see you on this board. I have been hammering Calvinists from time to time here and it is nice to see some of the old group coming around to clarify and provide quotes for my posts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

One thing that will become painfully obvious "shortly" is that Calvinism only "works" by ignoring the inconvenient details in the posts exposing it's flaws.

Here is an example --

As a CAlvinist you have to ask yourself "Why is God CHOOSING to represent His views like this"?? Why does He CHOOSE to tell us "I looked and then I was SORRY I had made mankind"?

God CHOOSES to do this because God wants us to view His will and choice as completely in tune with events on earth and the decisions made in real life.

God COULD have said "OH my they have sinned again. What I shocker! I guess I will just slaughter all mankind as I planned to do from the start!"

(If indeed He had been wanting to convey Calvinism).

Instead of that the All-knowing God goes far out of His way to present this in a continued Arminian Model where God is interacting with the World and events. He shows Himself as taking responsibility for what He chooses to allow and not allow!!

Those who seek to stick God in a box -- are missing the point where he says "OH HOW Can I give you up?? ALL my compassions are turned within me!! Oh WHY WILL you die??!! As I live says the Lord I have NO pleasure in the death of the wicked!".

God "SO LOVED THE WORLD" that He gave -- yes "really"!.

</font>[/QUOTE]So "where is" the answer to that question about Genesis 6??

Nowhere!

Daniel does not address Genesis 6 -- except as we observe what happens in Daniel 4. Here the King is warned and the king is told to repent or else have his own sovereignty removed UNTIL he finally chooses to acknowledge God!

See - it would have been better to simply answer the Gen 6 question instead of going to Daniel to compound the problems seen in Calvinism.

Why not just answer the initial Genesis 6 question instead?

In Christ,

Bob

[ March 31, 2006, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Since the choice of the Calvinist is to flee from the Genesis 6 question - still waiting for an anser --

How about Daniel 4??

Here we have seen the vision and it’s interpretation – a decree from the “Most High” – a lesson being worked out to punish the king until he finally chooses to recognize that it is not HE who is at the top – but God. This method of motivating punishment is exactly the way to “motivate” a decision for God rather than pressing a button on a robot!

Notice that the counsel from God’s servant is not “there is nothing you can do to change this prediction because God really does not care what you think so just wait for God to get around to cursing you” – As many Calvinists had supposed. Instead we get the very “Arminian” advice to choose to follow God now – and avoid the punishment ahead.

Daniel speaks as do all prophets of God – directing mankind to repentance and turning away from rebellion. Nothing new here.

#1. God waited until Nebuchadnezzar exalts his own sovereignty over God – again.
#2. God declares that Nebuchadnezzar’s sovereignty will now be taken away for a time.
#3. God declares that enough time must pass UNTIL Nebuchadnezzar is finally broken to the point of choosing to recognize God.

What an Arminian Concept! A system of compelling events to motivate choice!!

A decree of God delayed until the sinful king chooses to cross a certain line in rebellion and then AS he crosses that line- the predicted sentence is given!

In Christ,

Bob

 

As we learned from Daniel 4 -- God never says "I am sovereign I will curse you just because I feel like it - no need to repent and turn because nothing you say or do matters - only what I happen to feel like doing".

As we learned from Genesis 6 -- God never says "Well I am now going to wipe you out just as I planned to do all along" -- Rather He presents Himself as changing to the point of repentance and sorrow as His reaction to man's wickedness reaching a certain point!

He expresses this as a dynamic interactive decision NOT as a predetermined doom formed at the creation of mankind. So why does the all knowing God present it in the ARMINIAN model instead of the Calvinist one?

That is a question for Calvinists to answer!

Still waiting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob says........

I see. So you are saying that although "I may think" that I am making choices here -- the real truth is that God never could figure out a way for Him to still be sovereign and yet - allow others to make choices

Gods Holy and unchanging Word says....

dan 4..

34 At the end of that time, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven, and my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High; I honored and glorified him who lives forever.
       His dominion is an eternal dominion;
       his kingdom endures from generation to generation.

    35 All the peoples of the earth
       are regarded as nothing.
       He does as he pleases
       with the powers of heaven
       and the peoples of the earth.
       No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done?"
*********************
Bob says...
- so the truth is I am not really making a choice here at all!

Gods Holy Word says...

He does as he pleases
       with the powers of heaven
       and the peoples of the earth.
       No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done
******************************

Bob mocks....

The real truth is that God is socvereignly in control and I am simply "imagining" that I am making choices.

Gods Holy Word says...

Job 42:1-2

Then Job answered the Lord, and said, "I know that Thou canst do all things and NO PURPOSE of Thine can be thwarted"

oh yeah...and...

He does as he pleases
       with the powers of heaven
       and the peoples of the earth.
       No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done

also..look at Romans 9

****************************
Bob pulls a slick move trying to make others think that this is not in the Bible...but rather dreamed up by calvinism....

"(in your view of Calvinism)"

James....
To bad for your point that these verse are in the Bible. I guess that would me your logic goes down to the Bible....not Calvinism...right?
***********************
Bob says....
That means that as I point out....

James....
Bobs logic....one sided. Bob pointed out...you point to verses...and pass over others. You have always done this Bob. Bob...you can't pick and choose..that is Home Made Gospel...or the Gospel accoring to Bob.

One good thought here Bob...try reading the whole Bible.

**************
Bob post...
- text after text in God's Word showing God to "So Love the World"

James....
Indeed. God does love the world...the world...or mankind. The big blunder in this is where you stop. God gave His son...but the world said no thanks.
*******************
Bob says....
and showing the blunders of Calvinism

James...

Of the Bible Bob...and the Bible has no blunders...sorry
******************

Bob post....

- it is not really "ME" doing it

James...
Your post are always about you and your freedom.

but the Bible says..

He does as he pleases
       with the powers of heaven
       and the peoples of the earth.
       No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done

and i never seen this addressed by you...another side step by Bob

*******************

Bob says....
-- it is God!

James...

Its all about God Bob. Not you and your will.
****************
Bob once again pulls a fast shift.....

And "that" means that when you argue against my position you are not really arguing against "me" but against God Himself as He sovereignly dictates that I point out His Word in saying "God so LOVED the World"

James says...
i addressed the .."God so love the world". Now..without mocking the Word...address this...

He does as he pleases
       with the powers of heaven
       and the peoples of the earth.
       No one can hold back his hand
       or say to him: "What have you done.
****************

Bob says....

By the way - I notice you never responded to the glaring gap in Calvinism that I pointed out regarding that statement in Genesis 6 -- Why didn't God make the CALVINIST case saying "I am going to wipe out mankind now just as I always intended to do - so no change here"??

James...

I didn't see that post. I will address Gen 6 in another post.....once i understand your point.
*********************

Bob brags.....

BTW James it is good to see you on this board. I have been hammering Calvinists from time to time here and it is nice to see some of the old group coming around to clarify and provide quotes for my posts.

James...
we do need to work on that pride Bob. BTW...i have talked to many old timers as you call them. They as I...have been very busy...and not much time to post. I'm sure in your pride you feel you ran them all off.

If Christ can die for me..i can take a little mocking from Bob. Others have been set afire for beliveing in Gods Word. I'm sure those that are under your hammer now are in the joys of grace.


In Christ...James