Proof Calvinism is the only true doctrine

Really though when one takes the wraps off of what they're saying that pretty much sums it up. It seems they feel there's just something so unique about them above others that grants them the special privilege to be saved. It's about them. They're the elect because they're the elect.

It seems to me for a non-Calvinist which I am it's really about one thing...the precious blood of Jesus which blots out EVERYONE'S sin who choose to believe. As the song goes, "Nothing but the blood of Jesus!" Nope. Not to do with us as something unique above others.....it's about the work that Jesus did on the cross and ONLY that. Paul said the focus on to whom God should show favor to is really directed to their response of what Jesus did on the cross.

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. Gal 6:14

I know our Calvinist friends would claim they appreciate that but not really IMO in the full measure they should. They hold to a belief that there just had to be something about THEM which gave them the salvation benefit. I've even asked some concerning this and they've replied they don't know all things just yet as to the why they're the elect but maybe some day God will reveal it. Trusting and hoping that at least some Calvinists would reconsider their position about all of this.

 

Ultimately what is being taught is Jesus has unconditional hatred of people and that is the exemplar we are to follow.

 

As I see it, many people are objecting from a position of not being deserving of His eternal wrath.

Properly understood, the doctrine of election brings praise to God for not throwing us all into Hell where we judiciously belong.
The position is one of gratitude from the "Calvinist" side... and resentment ( as if the elect are somehow superior, in their own strength, to the non-elect ) about what the book says, doesn't make any sense to me.

To the contrary, Rockson.

Believers are unique, but it is God that has made them so, not themselves.

It has always been about God, His attitude and treatment of sin, and His desire to make a short work upon the earth ( Romans 9:28 ).
Believers in Christ are elect because God, who man often argues against ( Romans 9:19-20 ), has made it so ( Romans 8:31-34 ).

It is and was never about them.

In the end, that is the only thing that separates the saved from the lost ( 1 Peter 4:18 ).

The mercy of God ( Titus 3:5-6 ) alone.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

It was and is always about Christ and His finished work on the cross.

Again, the focus is God and His mercy ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ), not what the elect have, do, or are that has any bearing on their salvation.

Mercy and compassion, as well as loving favor, are God's to bestow upon whomsoever He wishes...not on whoever we wish.
It's called "abasement", and it results in the saved being very grateful for being ...saved.

I asked Him that on several occasions, Rockson.

His answer has varied, from "Would you rather I didn't?" to, "Because I did...just accept that I did."
I often get very small and quiet, sitting in my backyard ( that He has graciously given me as a gift ), and realize my utter worthlessness when compared to His precious Son.

The Son He gave so that I could have an eternal relationship with Him.

I went through all of that years ago.

My position is built on the word of God, gradually coming into focus over 41 years as a believer in Christ and His sacrifice for me.
I don't think I'm going to reverse all the work that God has done in showing me what His precious words mean...

Nor would I ever want to.
I'll walk alone in this life, if I have to.
At least I don't have to go where He is sending most of mankind.



May God bless you sir.

 

I see it quite differently, Utilyan.

What is being taught from the "non-Calvinist" side, is that, ultimately, God the Father ( and His Son ) has unconditional love of all people ( even those that ignore Him and trample His commandments underfoot, refusing to repent ), and that is the exemplar that we are to follow...

Despite clear statements to the contrary:

" The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity." ( Psalms 5:5 )

" The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.
7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. " ( Psalms 11:5-7 )

" As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." ( Romans 9:13 ).

" What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." ( Romans 9:14-16 ).

Note:
I can personally attest to the fact that during all my years in "Traditionalist" churches, I never once heard any of these preached from, dealt with, or even remotely whispered from a pulpit.


Rather than deal with the apparent contradiction imposed when one takes John 3:16 all by itself and uses it as "proof" that God loves each and every man, woman and child that ever lived, these get tossed aside and are never dealt with...

Or, these somehow get conditioned in favor of God's love ( which is, in reality, contextual ), and "hate" gets redefined and somehow doesn't really mean, "hate".



The words are on the pages, Utilyan...
All you have to do is believe what they say.

 

"What is being taught from the "non-Calvinist" side, is that, ultimately, God the Father ( and His Son ) has unconditional love of all people ( even those that ignore Him and trample His commandments underfoot, refusing to repent ), and that is the exemplar that we are to follow..."

Yes this is perfect Christianity. Not only that, Even to those who killed his son! That is the exact Character of God. He loves you even while you are a sinner.

Amen that is the PERFECT FEARLESS character of God. Even so that Jesus forgives those crucifying him as they do it.

Tell us what you think is wrong with this view? Do you think that is weak? You don't see the power and complete victory of the cross. You expect EYE FOR AN EYE?

The TRUEST strength of all is found in complete mercy. Love is the highest courage. The ONLY GOD who acts like a God is Jesus Christ and you know it by his perfect patience and mercy.


The only reason God would ever issue the commandment is because he desired it done, the only reason he would demand repentance if he actually wanted it so. If he actually hated them there would be no outreach of any kind, he would not even care what they do, he doesn't even have to suffer their existence.

Romans 12

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, and weep with those who weep. 16Be of the same mind toward one another; do not be haughty in mind, but associate with the lowly. Do not be wise in your own estimation. 17Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men. 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men. 19Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord. 20“BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


God's wrath is not YOUR wrath. The perfect destruction of evil is called repentance. God does not overcome evil by evil.

"Or, these somehow get conditioned in favor of God's love ( which is, in reality, contextual ), and "hate" gets redefined and somehow doesn't really mean, "hate"."

Those are figures of speech you are misinterpreting.

Luke 14

26“If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

Have you shot your parents and killed your family? You hate them correct? Hate the wife, hate the children. Hate all your brothers and sisters. Hate yourself?

Do you hate your family truly? Or is hate now redefined and somehow doesn't really mean hate?

 

It's what people who object to the biblical doctrines of God's grace, label with a man's name and call everyone who even remotely resembles that man's teaching, as.

Describe the doctrines of Christ by His words...all of them.
That is what I call "the doctrine of Christ".

Certain passages elevated over others?
To me, that is not "the doctrine of Christ".
For example:

John 3:16 cannot take precedence over John 6:64-65 or John 17:2.
John 3:16 cannot take precedence over Ephesians 2:1-10, or Matthew 1:21.

Every word has its proper place, and every word is important ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ).
His word does not contradict itself.

As I see it, that's very nearly what everyone who objects to Psalms 65:4, Matthew 7:21-23, Matthew 25:34, John 6:29, John 6:37-40, John 6:44, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 9:14-18, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 and many others will say.

That's exactly how it happened for me ( Romans 10:20 ).

I was sitting there, minding my own business listening to a preacher preach the words of God, and all of a sudden, "wham!".
It hit me that the very words of God were true.

I am a sinner, and I am in very deep trouble with God except for Jesus Christ and Him dying on the cross for me.

My faith came when I "heard" the word of God ( Romans 10:17 ).
My belief was given to me as a gift ( Philippians 1:29 ) from God.

I believe, but not because of anything that I did.

Why should it make anyone envious?

If you've truly believed on Jesus Christ, then you are elect...and everything said in God's word about how precious His children are to God, applies to you and everyone else that truly believes.

Neither was I.

I was born in 1966, and born again in 1978.
All because of God's mercy and grace ( Titus 3:5-6 )...not because of anything I ever did.

It took Him years to change my thinking...
It didn't just happen overnight.

 

I didn't understand 25 years ago, and I was still saved.

The only one that can truly tell someone that, is the Lord on Judgment Day ( Matthew 25:31-46 ).

In reality, the only one whose word carries any real weight, is His and always will be His.

I can respect that.
But I can also tell you that before 17 years ago I wasn't "one", nor did I really care about biblical doctrine all that much.

To me, God is not the lovey-dovey, wishy-squishy sickly-sweet and syrupy limited-by-man's-will caricature that I grew up listening to from the various pulpits I sat in front of.

I got a rude awakening when I shut all that out and simply began to read His word without all that influence years later.

Because His holiness, righteousness and judgment are not limited by His love.
They all have their proper context.

Not an oxymoron to me...
But then, 40 years ago, it would have been.

No hatred, MB.

Simply that there's way more to God's word than just John 3:16.
Try looking at John 3:18-20, for example, and put John 3:16 back into the text where it belongs, instead of ( apparently ) picking it up and fixating on it.

His love has a context, and there are over 31,000 things He has to say in His word than one verse alone can do justice to.


This is my final reply in this thread.


May God, in His mercy and purposes, bless you richly with both earthly and Heavenly gifts that abound towards you more and more with each passing year, MB.

 

What he means....

"May God, in His mercy and purposes, bless you richly with both earthly and Heavenly gifts that abound towards you more and more with each passing year, MB. " = Enjoy hell reprobate as my god unconditionally hated you first from the foundation of creation to take pleasure and glory in your damnation.

 

You reject Unconditional Election, not Calvinists.

 

Technically, only Rome tells people that it is the ONLY TRUE MOTHER CHURCH ... even excommunicating the Eastern Orthodox for rejecting Peter.

Calvinists and Arminians just argue about TRUTH and leave deciding who is saved to God.

 

You speak only in half measures of what Non-Calvinist believe and really that's most unfair. Most Non-Calvinists believe unrepentant sinners do deserve the wrath of God and they deserve it for they reject the gospel. But those same individuals ARE given a choice. Sorry Dave but speaking only in half measures is being rather disingenuous.

And sorry again Dave but I'd have to say at least on these subjects and themes you don't even know what true justice is.

So here you're openly acknowledged you asked God why you're the elect and you claim he gave you an answer outside of believing in his work on the cross and his precious blood as the reason you were justified. By sayng he wouldn't give you an answer is to suggest there's something more other than believing what took place at the cross....Just something special about you had to be the reason. Sorry Dave. You're off the WORD.

Well OK if you're going to bring up numbers and years let me say that my position is built on the word of God, gradually coming into focus over 43 years (saved in 1976) as a believer in Christ and his sacrifice for me. So do think I should reverse all the work that God has done in showing me what his precious words mean? My point.....don't try to play TRUMP cards over others by the mentioning of the years you've been IN THE WAY. If you feel it's reasonable to do so well I've got two years on you.

 

Does JUSTICE have something to do with this:

• [Rom 3:23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
  
• [Eze 18:4] "Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
• [Eze 18:20] "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
  
• [Deu 32:41] If I sharpen My flashing sword, And My hand takes hold on justice, I will render vengeance on My adversaries, And I will repay those who hate Me.
  
• [Eph 2:1-3] 1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Justice: the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

 

I fail to see your point.

 

God has already defined "True Justice" for you. Every person that sins (Fails to "LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH") deserves to experience the wrath of God and die ... and it just so happens that "all have sinned". So "True Justice" is every soul that is punished for its sins.

Anything else is something other than "Justice".

You accuse others of not knowing "what true justice is", but are you sure that you correctly understand what Justice is?

 

No you are adding gnostic and pagan western concepts of justice.


Biblical Justice is simply not your idea of justice, because it based on charity, mercy, righteous, redeeming, restorative. not vindictive, retributive and sadism

The word for justice IS MERCY.
===
Tzedakah - Wikipedia
Tzedakah [tsedaˈka] or Ṣ'daqah [sˤəðaːˈqaː] in Classical Hebrew (Hebrew: צדקה) (Arabic: الصدقة‎, romanized: aṣ-Ṣadaqa), is a Hebrew word literally meaning "justice" or "righteousness", but commonly used to signify charity.[1] Notably, this concept of "charity" is different from the modern Western understanding of "charity", which is typically understood as a spontaneous act of goodwill and a marker of generosity, as tzedakah is rather an ethical obligation.
===

It has connection with charity, AGAPE, LOVE and righteousness.

You see if it doesn't have God in it, it would not be justice at all.

Deuteronomy 32

2“Let my teaching drop as the rain,
My speech distill as the dew,
As the droplets on the fresh grass
And as the showers on the herb.

3“For I proclaim the name of the LORD;
Ascribe greatness to our God!

4“The Rock! His work is perfect,
For all His ways are just;
A God of faithfulness and without injustice,
Righteous and upright is He.


Again the weakness of the position is you have to have terms redefined unbiblically and have those drilled in your head first.

But when we look to take the meanings from the words and the scripture you are not going to be able to build your position.

Again this the problem you start by your position first, rather then emphasized and build it from what scripture actually says.

This mistake you clearly made of the word "Justice" is perfect example.

You can't harmonize the idea of Justice mercy and love being intrinsically together.

Without Love, without Mercy, you are also without Justice in every sense of the word.

 

... justice:

"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil." [John 3:18-19]

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." [John 3:36]

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." [Ephesians 2:1-3]

• κρίνω krínō, kree'-no; properly, to distinguish, i.e. decide (mentally or judicially); by implication, to try, condemn, punish
• κρίσις krísis, kree'-sis; decision (subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension, a tribunal; by implication, justice (especially, divine law)
• ὀργή orgḗ, or-gay'; from G3713; properly, desire (as a reaching forth or excitement of the mind), i.e. (by analogy), violent passion (ire, or (justifiable) abhorrence); by implication punishment

... is not the same as mercy:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:4-7]

• ἔλεος éleos, el'-eh-os; of uncertain affinity; compassion (human or divine, especially active)
• ἀγάπη agápē, ag-ah'-pay; from G25; love, i.e. affection or benevolence; specially (plural) a love-feast
• χάρις cháris, khar'-ece; from G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude)