1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Is it idolatry?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Walpole, Sep 17, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 2 of 11
  1. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If you don't want to hear from me do not engage me.
     
    #21 Revmitchell, Sep 17, 2019
  2. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Probably best since you seem to be looking to argue for argument's sake.

    Best wishes to you.
     
    #22 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  3. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So using an image to represent / symbolize Jesus would be considered idolatry, but using bread and wine / juice to represent / symbolize Him would not be?

    Help me understand the difference.
     
    #23 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As an act in rememberence of Christ and the work of the cross (as commanded by God) the partaker remembers through the act what Christ did. It is not idoltry as the object of worship is not tge elements of the supper but God, Who is worthy of worship.
     
    #24 JonC, Sep 17, 2019
  5. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2006
    Messages:
    52,030
    Likes Received:
    3,657
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No I made my concern clear, I don't care for your "trick question" as Scarlett put it. Further, I find your heresy of suggesting the Lord's Supper as idolatrous ridiculous. You bring up the Lord's Supper in a less than honest way but do not bring up the scripture associated with it. Nothing about your thread looks honest or upfront.
     
    #25 Revmitchell, Sep 17, 2019
  6. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    But if the bread and wine / juice are said to symbolize / represent God, then they are objects of worship. I am trying to understand why an image said to represent / symbolize God is considered idolatrous, but bread and wine / juice are not.

    St. Paul said, "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participatio (koinōnia) n in Christ's blood? Is not the bread we break a participation in Christ's body?" (1 Cor 10:16)

    koinōnia = Fellowship, association, communion, intercourse, intimacy

    Source --> Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


    Wouldn't trying to have fellowship, association, communion, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol such as bread and wine / juice be the height of idolatry?

    Shouldn't that be reserved for God alone?
     
    #26 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2019
  7. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Because Jesus (God) commanded us to do this, "in remembrance of Him."
    In the other instance the pastor (human) is suggesting we may do something if we like.
     
    #27 InTheLight, Sep 17, 2019
  8. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Are there other examples in Scripture where God commanded man to make something that symbolizes him and use it in the the context of worship?

    The examples I come up with are all condemnations of man making things said to symbolize / represent God. The golden calf quickly comes to mind.
     
    #28 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Some may say the elements symbolize or represent God. That does not make sense to me (I do not know how they get there).

    Scripture never says that. Scripture tells us to observe the Supper in rememberence - NOT as a symbol OF God but in rememberence of what He has done.
     
    #29 JonC, Sep 17, 2019
  10. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Idolotry is worshipping some amd ma
    Without going into it here, there are different interpretations of this. Orthodox believers believe that Jesus (God) is a part of the elements, that they really do contain His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity - while other Christians believe they are just a symbol of Him.

    I thought Baptists did indeed believe the elements were just symbolic. Do not Baptists do communion to remember his suffering and death through the symbols of crackers and grape juice?
     
    #30 Adonia, Sep 17, 2019
  11. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    JonC,

    Some people get there because of the words Jesus spoke when instituting the Supper.

    "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'" (Luke 22:19-22)

    Either the bread and wine are the literal body and blood of Christ, or they are mere symbols.

    As for the remembrance, it's interesting to note if you are doing this to remember what He had done (namely the Cross), He had not yet done it when He instituted the Supper. Hence you would be remembering / commemorating that which did not occur until the following day. In other words, what exactly are you remembering, as nothing was offered so as to be commemorated until the following day on Good Friday.

    It would appear Christ either instituted an empty ritual complete with things said to represent / symbolize God, or there is something deeper going on. That's what I'm trying to understand.
     
    #31 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Baptist believe the elements symbolic but not as an actual symbol for God. It is in rememberance of Christ and the sacrifice of the cross (not as objects symbolizing God).

    I don't believe other views are necessarily idolatry.It just seemed appropriate that I leave the views of others for those who hold them.
     
    #32 JonC, Sep 17, 2019
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes. I believe the ordinance was instituted prior to the event it represented was completed.
     
    #33 JonC, Sep 17, 2019
  14. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Which raises the question: What exactly are you memorializing / commemorating?

    It would appear Christ either instituted an empty ritual complete with things said to represent / symbolize God at future events, or there is something deeper going on.

    That's what I'm trying to understand.
     
    #34 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  15. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    What exactly are they symbolic of?
     
    #35 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  16. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2010
    Messages:
    24,988
    Likes Received:
    2,268
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, well, Jesus is worthy to be worshiped. Apparently he is the exception to your observation.

    Rev. 5:12 saying with a loud voice: “Worthy is the Lamb who was slain To receive power and riches and wisdom,
    And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”
    13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:“Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”
    14 Then the four living creatures said, “Amen!” And the twenty-four elders fell down and worshiped Him who lives forever and ever.
     
    #36 InTheLight, Sep 17, 2019
  17. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    A very important distinction for those that use the symbolic outlook. Thanks for the clarification.
     
    #37 Adonia, Sep 17, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Now I'm really confused. Recall I wrote:

    Are there other examples in Scripture where God commanded man to make something that symbolizes him and use it in the the context of worship?

    The examples I come up with are all condemnations of man making things said to symbolize / represent God. The golden calf quickly comes to mind    .


    --> Are you stating that Jesus was created by man to symbolize God?
     
    #38 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  19. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    What exactly are they symbolic of?
     
    #39 Walpole, Sep 17, 2019
  20. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Someone who views Holy Communion in a symbolic way needs to answer that.
     
    #40 Adonia, Sep 17, 2019
Page 2 of 11
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...