Calvinism/Arminianism Forum - Finally Imploded?

Ah, but this is the whole issue. Some do indeed teach that you are saved by election. Because they teach unless you were first elected by God, you cannot possibly have faith and come to Jesus.

I cannot say what every Calvinist believes (because no two Calvinists seem to believe the same exact thing), but many Calvinists teach that a person is elected "outside" of Christ by the Father, and then given to the Son. This is serious error in a very important way.

It makes God the Father the mediator between man and Jesus.

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

The scriptures teach that Jesus is the mediator between God and men. But many Calvinists teach that God is the mediator between man and Jesus.

Do you see what James White is saying here? He is saying the reason he came to Christ is because God chose him and elected him outside of Christ and then gave him to Christ.

Do you see what Calvin is saying here? He is saying he admits that many passages of scripture show that the foundation of God's love for us is "in Christ", and that outside of Christ we are detested by God.

But then he says we have to remember that the Heavenly Father's "secret love" is the first love given to us.

In other words, God has to first love you before he will give you to Christ. This makes God the mediator between man and Jesus which absolutely contradicts the scriptures.

The scriptures teach;

Man ------> Jesus ------> God the Father

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Calvinism teaches;

Man -------> God the Father ------> Jesus

If this were so, then John 14:6 should say:

Jesus saith unto him, The Father is the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Son, but by him.

No, the scriptures teach we are only accepted "in Christ".

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

God chose those "in him" that is, in Christ before the foundation of the world.

How could we be in Christ before we were born? That is a good and honest question. The only answer is that the scriptures clearly show us that God knew who would believe and who would believe not from the beginning.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

 

I'm going to make a quick response but that will be it for this. You like to debate Calvinism more than doctrine. I rather debate doctrine from the Scriptures instead of what you think Calvinist believe.

You claim to believe in Election(conditional) so is election the first step(before the foundation of the world)? Saying one must first be elected doesn't mean that election saves. It is elected to salvation. Salvation comes later.

I didn't see anyone say that we are elected outside of Christ.

"According as he(Father) hath chosen us in him(Christ) before the foundation of the world..."

Not true.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me(Christ) shall come to me(Christ)"
Jesus is the mediator between man and the Father. Election was done by the father(Eph 1:4) and those were given to the son. (John 6:37)

He never said any such thing. He was referring to John 6 and the passage in verse 37. "All that the Father giveth me(Christ) shall come to me(Christ)"

Or it could mean that God loved us and knew us(more than just a knowledge). Your way, our election was because of something we did.

Care to respond to the James passage we were speaking about before? You still haven't responded to my initial post.

http://baptistboard.com/showpost.php...5&postcount=73

 

No, Foreknowledge comes before election. We are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father".

1 Pet 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Now, it does say "through sanctification of the Spirit" unto "obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ".

How are we sanctified through the Spirit? Through God's word.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

God's Word and the Spirit are one in the same.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

So, you must first hear the Word of God. This is hearing Jesus himself, he is the Word of God.

Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You cannot possibly believe on Jesus unless you have heard of him (Romans 10:14). This is why the scriptures say no one can come to Jesus unless it (the scriptures, Word of God) were given him by the Father. The Father did send Jesus into the world, but Jesus is our go-between or mediator between man and the Father.

Jesus came to us in the Word of God from the beginning. He spoke by his Spirit through prophets he inspired. And then 2000 years ago he was manifest in the flesh.

You have just verified what I have said. You believe God elected you outside of Christ and his merit, and then gave you to Jesus. This would make election the foundation of salvation, for unless you were first elected, you could not possibly have faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 does not say you were elected outside Christ, it says you were elected "in Christ". This is where you make a serious error.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

We are only acceptable to God the Father because we are "in Christ". We have Christ's righteousness imputed to us. Without Christ's righteousness we would be utterly detestable to God the Father. You cannot be elected or chosen outside Christ, but this is what many Calvinists (and you) believe. This is error.

 

I have no reason to debate someone that has to lie. You like to be dishonest and only quote part of what I said. That makes you a liar.

I said we were elected in Christ.

then you quote ephesians 1:4(while deleting mine) to try to say I said something I didn't say)

That's dishonest winman. I would expect better from you.

But beyond that, I've quoted Scripture and you don't seem to like it when Jesus said that the Father gave us to the Son. (John 6:37)

1. The Father elected us in Christ before the foundation of the world Ephesians 1:4
2. The Father gave us to the son. John 6:37

So you were elected when you were in Christ? Is that what you are advocating? Or were you elected before you were in Christ(ie before the foundation of the world)

 

That is not what you said. You said:

Election was done by the father(Eph 1:4) and those were given to the son. (John 6:37)

Those are your exact words. You said election was done by the Father, and then those who were elected were given to the Son. You weren't elected because you were "in Christ", you believe you were elected "outside Christ" and then given to Jesus at which point you became "in Christ".

That is a HUGE difference.

And it must be so if your doctrine is correct. Because it is absolutely impossible for you to express faith in Christ unless you have been elected and regenerated by the Father according to the doctrine of Total Depravity. There is no such thing as an unbeliever being "in Christ". So, if God elects you and regenerates you when you were an unbelieving sinner, then God elected you "outside Christ". If was only AFTER he elected you and regenerated you to have the ability to trust in Christ that you became "in Christ".

I have not lied, or been misleading. That is what you said. And it is exactly what I was speaking about. You believe the same (or at least very similar) to what James White and John Calvin said.

Now, you know what? Calvin contradicted that first statement I showed elsewhere. Look at this quote.

This statement of Calvin is very different from the first quote I showed. Calvin is correct here, notice he points out that "in him" in Ephesians 1:4 means "in Christ".

And he wisely says "Let no one then seek confidence in his election elsewhere, unless he wish to obliterate his name from the book of life in which it is written."

Now that is a serious warning. I didn't write that, John Calvin did. Now perhaps you might understand why I go to such great pains to fight the doctrines of Calvinism here.

But I did not misrepresent you, I simply quoted your own words.

 

I love when people refer to John Calvin, as if he were the originator of the doctrines of grace. Really, the terms Calvinism and Arminianism are bad terms because they tend to lead one to believe that those in each camp follow the teachings of their namesake. John Calvin was sometimes good at expressing the doctrines of the bible, but he was also sometimes very bad at it.

 

No, you took my quote out of the context. Did You read what I wrong JUST BEFORE IT? I said that we are elected in Christ by the Father. The passage in Ephesians doesn't say we are elected because we are in Christ. We were no "in Christ" when election took place, it was done before the foundation of the world. I never said "you believe you were elected "outside Christ" and then given to Jesus at which point you became 'in Christ'."

And it must be so if your doctrine is correct. Because it is absolutely impossible for you to express faith in Christ unless you have been elected and regenerated by the Father according to the doctrine of Total Depravity. There is no such thing as an unbeliever being "in Christ". So, if God elects you and regenerates you when you were an unbelieving sinner, then God elected you "outside Christ". If was only AFTER he elected you and regenerated you to have the ability to trust in Christ that you became "in Christ".
Again, when did God elect you? Was it before the foundation of the world as Ephesians 1:4 says? Were you in Christ back then before you were born?

Your lie was saying I said something I didn't say(noted above) and removing a verse and then saying I said something that the verse I quote contradicted. You were lying, just admit it and move on.

As I said previously that "in him" means "in Christ."

And he wisely says "Let no one then seek confidence in his election elsewhere, unless he wish to obliterate his name from the book of life in which it is written."

Now that is a serious warning. I didn't write that, John Calvin did. Now perhaps you might understand why I go to such great pains to fight the doctrines of Calvinism here. [/quote]Don't misrepresent when you do. As I said, I'm not interested in debating Calvinism but debating the doctrines.

...out of context...that's misrepresenting. I never said we are elected outside of Christ. Our electing is in Christ, but that doesn't mean we are in Christ yet.

 

What?!?! You mean John Calvin didn't originate Calvinism.....

 

The Letter

The people who Paul was talking about wasn't us who was chosen before the foundation of the world, but the one's who the Letter was intended to those who already trusting in Christ.

The scripture teaches that is is those who trust in Christ is the one's He will keep, give to Christ.

When we are in Christ we are in the one who was chosen before the foundation of the world, so being in Him we have been chosen.

I know I am not worthy or created for honor, but was created for destruction, being in Christ I am saved from this destruction. Anyone who thinks they were created for honor apart from Christ is only fooling themselves.

 

The people that Paul was writing to were the ones chosen before the foundation of the world. Yes, Paul was writing to Christians, who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world.

Yes, those that trust in Christ, He will keep. Those that the Father gives the son, He will keep. Speaking about the same people, although not all have trusted yet. The giving is before the coming. Your statement seemed to have it backwards. All those that are given to the Son will come to him(All that the Father giveth me[Christ] shall come to me[Christ]; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.)

We were chosen before the foundation of the world, that is when we were chosen. We are saved when we are in Christ.

:thumbsup:

 

Given to Christ

No one can come or be given to Christ that have not heard the message of their salvation having believed. It is those who trust in Christ that was chosen before the foundation of the world, not like how men want it to be and twist the scripture to be.

God does want all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are His messengers.

John 6:44-46
44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[a] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me

 

John 6 says that "All that the Father giveth me[Christ] shall come to me[Christ]; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.) The giving to Christ comes before the coming, not after as John 6 clearly states. So one can be given to Christ before he is born. This happens before we come to him.

So coming to Christ came before the foundation of the world? I'm not following you here.

 

Wise and learned

God the Father has also hidden the truth from the wise and learned.


He is going to keep the meek and humble who trust in the name of the Lord. Those who don't trust in their own understand but trust in the Lord. These are the one's who will come, now these are the the one's God is given to His Son for His will and His purpose.

 

Tree

Here is a tree that was chosen before the foundation of the world, lets call it the tree of life.

The original branches was cut out for unbelief , but God kept the meek and humble who trusted in the name of the Lord and then God keeps including those who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believed.

See it is this tree that is chosen before the foundation of the world and those who are in it.

 

Those that are chosen are individuals. Ephesians 1 is about individual election, not national election.

Yes, these are the ones that God has given. This giving is the elect to Christ. This has already been done.

 

scripture

This is where I got what I told you.

Ephesians 1:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory

Romans 11:
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Praise be to God

23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

John 15:
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "[Psalm 95:7-11]
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion."[Psalm 95:7,8 ]

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

Jude:
5Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord[Some early manuscripts Jesus ] delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

John 13:35
By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Psalm 22:5
They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

Zephaniah 3:12
But I will leave within you the meek and humble, who trust in the name of the LORD.

Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.

See we were also included when we heard the Gospel of our salvation having believed. They were not apart of it until they were included in the tree of life that was chosen before the foundation of the world. Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare us either.


1 Timothy 2
Instructions on Worship
1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

I am not lying to you either all is everyone, but they are going to have to trust in Jesus, and trusting Christ is not working. I will not take a chance on my salvation when there is a big chance someone can be deadly wrong. God has promised that those who trust in Jesus will not be put to shame.

 

This is why these debates are so unprofitable. I see a lot of scripture quoted, which is good, but I see a total lack of heed given to the context of those passages. I also see a lot of ignorance of biblical terms and how they are used. The fact is the two sides are dealing with the same terms but not the same definitions of those terms. As long as this is the case, there can be no agreement.

 

This is where we disagree. I believe (as do many Christian scholars), that this verse indeed shows we are elected "in Christ". We are not elected "to be in Christ". That is a major difference between us.

We have no righteousness, merit, or anything of value of our own to offer God the Father. It is only "in Christ" that we are imputed His righteousness and merit and therefore are made acceptable to God. And that is what Ephesians 1:6 says:

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

"The beloved" means Jesus, Jesus is God's elect or beloved.

Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

There is an example of this concept in the OT, the story of Mephibosheth, Jonathan's son. David and Jonathan had made a covenant with each other because they loved each other, to protect each other's family if something were to happen to one of them.

1 Sam 18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

Jonathan was killed in battle and David became king. David sought to know if there were any surviving members of Jonathan's family that he might show grace to them for Jonathan's sake and the covenant they had.

2 Sam 9:1 And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake?

There was one surviving son, Mephibosheth. Mephibosheth had no favor or merit with David of his own, yet David took him into his house and took care of him for Jonathan's sake.

2 Sam 9:6 Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!
7 And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually.

And this is how it works for us as Christians. God elects us not for any merit we have, and not for some "secret love" that Calvin spoke about. God elects us because we are "in Christ". He shows us favor because of the merit of Jesus, for His sake, not because we deserve any favor or grace from God.

And you cannot be "in Christ" unless you have believed in him.

God in his foreknowledge knows who will believe on Jesus. It is those he elects or chooses. Not because of any merit we have, but because of Jesus's merit, and for his sake.

 

This is speaking of God's word, this has been shown many times. Calvinists love to quote John 6:37 and John 6:44, but ignore John 6:45 which explains how they are given.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

You can't simply pull verse 37 out of the context of the passage. In verse 45 Jesus explains how believers are given to Jesus, and how they are drawn. They are drawn through the Word of God. No man can come to Jesus unless he has heard, learned, and been taught of the Father. And how do we learn from the Father? The scriptures.

And later in the scriptures Jesus reemphasizes this. He explains his words are spirit and life. But because some men will not believe his words, they therefore cannot come to Christ.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

You have to understand what Jesus is saying here. He is telling these Jews directly that his words are spirit and life. You cannot save yourself through any effort or merit of your own (flesh). Life must be given you of the Father through his word. But you must believe his Word.

#1 The words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life
#2 But there are some of you that believe not (they would not receive or accept his words).
#3 Therefore (because they believed not) said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it (his words) were given unto him of my Father.

If you are saved, it is because God revealed Jesus to you through his word. It was given you. But it is not forced on you, you must receive his word willingly. You can offer a girl an engagement ring, and if she accepts it, it was given to her from you. But if she refuses it, then it was not given to her from you. Do you understand that?

Bob- Judge, I am suing this girl because I gave her an engagement ring and now she won't marry me. So I want the value of the ring.

Judge- Is this so?

Sue- No, your honor. He offered me an engagement ring, but I refused it, I don't want to marry him.

Judge- Is this so?

Bob- No your honor, I gave her the ring. Yes, she refused it, but I still gave it to her.

Judge- If she refused it, then you did not give it to her. You attempted to give it to her. But she did not accept it or take possession of it. You can't sue her for the value of a ring she never accepted.

Bob- But I gave her the ring.

Judge- No, you didn't.

Notice Jesus repeats that no man can come to Jesus unless it were given him by the Father. And notice in both instances that Jesus is speaking of his word, the scriptures.

You can only come to God through Jesus, and Jesus is the Word of God.

 

Genesis 3
The Fall of Man
1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

This is what I see, that is why we can't come to agreement. Men trying to bring doubt in the word of God. The Devil is still using the same tactics.