Purgatory?

That is why I like THIS forum for open discussion with RC members. They are much more inclined here to listen to a Bible based argument and the response "We are right because we always say we are right" that you get on those RC-centric boards is not as likely for them here.

 

You truly consider the apocrapha inspired? despite the fact they reference no other scripture with the exception of one book I think Enoch? they also make no claim to be the word of god unlike the rest of the scriptures? doesn't it seem odd to catholics the correlation between the council of trent and the addition of these books, it does to me.

 

John Calvin started the concept of prugatory.

 

Prugatory maybe - but Purgatory was started by the RCC.

 

Here's an issue I think the Catholics got right, actually. Or at least mostly right. Ever read C. S. Lewis' The Great Divorce?

My understanding of the doctrine is this:

In heaven we will be perfect. On earth, even though we're forgiven, we are not yet perfected. Some change will happen when we die, and that is purgatory.

As for scripture

We're not saved in hell, and we don't suffer loss in heaven...so this seems to me from how I interpret it to refer to this moment of cleansing or "purging", which the Catholics just give a name to.

It's not apart from Christ's blood, but that true washing.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Limbo was never a doctrine was my understanding. It was a theological speculation. I used to have a big problem with that idea too once I read Dante, but upon investigation I could never find it as an "official doctrine" or "dogma".

 

I have a feeling most people misunderstand indulgences, from my limited experience with other Catholic issues...

I'll look into those...

 

Ther may be a way to misunderstand the Scriptures and come up with a 'purgatory'...

Two thngs come to mind...

First, 'Paradise' and 'Abraham's Bosom' were very real concepts to the Jews of Jesus' day...

I say that because Jesus in His parable of the rich man alluded to that concept...

So, in one sense you could develope a doctrine of Purgatory based on pre-Grace conditions...

But, scripture also indicates that Jesus led captives captive in His Train and that Hell hath enlarged her bounds...

So, while there may have *been* a 'purgatory'...

It now now longer exists and the situation is "Absent from the Body - Present with the Lord".

Mike Sr.

 

Are we perfected when we die? Is our attachment to sin loosed finally only after death and by the time of the resurrection?

What I can find is that indulgences:

1) Don't forgive sins - they "remit the temporal punishment for sin", which seems to mean that AFTER the sin's been forgiven, it helps to fix the window, in the above example...
2) Were never meant to be sold
3) Were given for pius actions, including the giving of Alms to the church
4) THAT is what was abused, I guess...
5) Interestingly, the church seems to still offer them, just not for alms anymore. In fact, they even give them for reading the bible for a half hour!

Sources, especially this.

From what I can tell, www.catholic.com seems to be presenting the catholic position reasonably...

I may or may not agree with it all, but I think there is still a lot of misunderstanding on this issue...

 

My research on scripture tends to speculate otherwise. Too many protestants read the Bible and don't see. Satan glosses over the mind's eye with a cataract. People grow being taught only what is taught to them from the pulpit and what their families believe.

But as to scripture, here it is:

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

B]II. Purification After Death By Fire[/B]

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

 

Have you visited this site?:

http://forums.catholic.com/

They are a lot more charitable there. They don't bash Non-Catholics.

I also found this interesting story on purgatory:

http://www.envoymagazine.com/PlanetEnvoy/Special-PurgatoryEmergencyRoom1.htm

Patrick Madrid convinced me. That is just a few of the reasons I am contemplating joining the Catholic Church.

 

I would see Purgatory - if it exists - as a kind of post-mortem continuing sanctification. For instance, though I am saved by the sacrifice of Jesus, I am not yet completely transformed into His image per Rom 12:1-2 and, were I to die today, there would still be a lot of 'unfinished business' in that department.

 

It is quite interesting to note the interpretation of the Bible by Catholic Mind, misunderstanding the profound meanings of each verse by human idea.

 

Paul writes in Romans:

Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

So, to answer "living stone" I believe that two things happen at death:

The influence of our Natural Bodies and their Appetites be removed...

We will be immediately ushered into Christ's Presence...

So, the natural tendency towards sin will be removed...

What *may* remain is thought patterns...

If you believe that mere non-intentional thought is sin... Then you might have a problem...

But, we are warned now to start taking action to reign our thoughts in...

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2 Corinthians 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

This is where most men fail Christ. There is no readiness to discipline their own though life and reign in their imaginations...

And, I won't even begin to mention the Ladies Romance Novels and Soap Operas... (Had to be fair ladies...)

The lack of a Berean attitude and self-discipline may also be a problem...

Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

-also-

Eph 5:25-27
...just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her {26} to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, {27} and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

I know that Christ is able to Cleanse us to be acceptable in His Presence...

Besides, while we may not be perefct experientially, the righteousness of Christ has **already** been imparted to us...

So, I really don't see a problem with _not_ having a purgatory for an extra rinse cycle as I have already been washed in the Blood of the Lamb...

And, if my feet still need washing, My Lord has already shown His desire and williness to do so once...

I have no doubt He will do so again...

Mike Sr.

 

Purgatory is not a place persei. It is more of a state of transition of required purification that most will have to go thru....all of our flaws and weaknesses that we have has to be purged(or for a better word if you please - burned off ) prior to entering in the presence of our Perfect God. Revelations states that nothing unclean can enter heaven. You may be saved prior to death, but there is a 99.99% chance that you are unclean....holding on to excessive baggage....that baggage being an enumerous number of things that make us impure:

PRIDE AND IT'S COUSINS

delight, dignity, ego, ego trip, egoism, egotism, face, gratification, happiness, honor, joy, pleasure, pridefulness, repletion, satisfaction, self-admiration, self-confidence, self-glorification, self-love, self-regard, self-respect, self-satisfaction, self-sufficiency, self-trust, self-worth, sufficiency, vainglory

GREED AND IT'S COUSINS

acquisitiveness, avarice, avidity, covetousness, craving, cupidity, eagerness, edacity, esurience, excess, gluttony, gormandizing, grabby, graspingness, hunger, indulgence, insatiableness, intemperance, longing, piggishness, rapacity, ravenousness, selfishness, the gimmies, voracity, avidity, close-fistedness, covetousness, cupidity, frugality, grabbiness, miserliness, niggardliness, parsimony, penny-pinching, penuriousness, rapacity, stinginess, thrift

ENVY AND IT'S COUSINS

backbiting, bad sportsmanship, coveting, covetousness, enviousness, evil eye, green-eyed monster, grudge, grudging, grudgingness, hatred, heartburn, ill will, invidiousness, jaundiced eye, lusting, malevolence, malice, maliciousness, malignity, opposition, prejudice, resentfulness, resentment, rivalry, spite, jealousy

WRATH/ANGER AND IT'S COUSINS

acrimony, animosity, annoyance, antagonism, blood of a bitch, blow up, cat fit, chagrin, choler, conniption, dander, disapprobation, displeasure, distemper, enmity, exasperation, fury, gall, hatred, huff, ill humor, ill temper, impatience, indignation, infuriation, irascibility, ire, irritability, irritation, mad, miff, outrage, passion, peevishness, pet, petulance, pique, rage, rankling, resentment, slow burn, sore, stew, storm, tantrum, temper, tiff, umbrage, vexation, violence, acerbate, affront, aggravate, agitate, annoy, antagonize, arouse, bait, blow up, boil, boil over, bristle, burn, burn up, chafe, craze, cross, displease, egg on, embitter, enrage, exacerbate, exasperate, excite, fret, gall, get mad, goad, incense, inflame, infuriate, irritate, madden, miff, nettle, offend, outrage, pique, provoke, raise hell, rankle, rant, rave, rile, ruffle, seethe, steam up, stew, stir up, tempt, umbrage

LUST AND IT'S COUSINS

animalism, aphrodisia, appetence, appetite, appetition, avidity, bag, big eyes, carnality, concupiscence, covetousness, craving, cupidity, desire, eroticism, excitement, fervor, greed, heat, hots, hunger, in heat, itch, lasciviousness, lechery, lewdness, libido, licentiousness, longing, prurience, pruriency, salaciousness, salacity, sensualism, sensuality, thirst, urge, wantonness, weakness, yen,ache, covet, crave, hanker, hunger for, itch, lech, long, need, pine, thirst, want, wish, yearn, yen

GLUTTONY AND IT'S COUSINS

appetence, appetency, appetition, big eyes, craving, demand, fondness, greed, hankering, hunger, inclination, itch, liking, longing, lust, passion, penchant, proclivity, propensity, ravenousness, relish, soft spot, stomach, sweet tooth, taste, thirst, urge, voracity, weakness, willingness, yearning, yen, zazzle, zeal, zest,
abandon, anarchy, animalism, arrogance, audacity, boldness, complacency, debauchery, disorder, effrontery, excess, forwardness, immoderation, impropriety, irresponsibility, lawlessness, laxity, looseness, presumptuousness, prodigality, profligacy, refractoriness, relaxation, relaxedness, sauciness, self-indulgence, sensuality, slackness, temerity, unrestraint, unruliness, wantonness, wildness

SLOTH AND IT'S COUSINS

bum, clock watcher, couch potato, deadbeat, good-for-nothing, goof-off, idler, laggard, layabout, lazybones, loafer, lotus eater, lounger, malingerer, moocher, shirker, slacker, SLOTH, sponger, apathy, deadness, drowsiness, dullness, idleness, immobility, immobilization, inactivity, indolence, languor, lassitude, laziness, lethargy, listlessness, oscitancy, paralysis, passivity, sluggishness, stillness, stupor, torpidity, torpor, unresponsiveness, apathy, coma, disinterest, disregard, drowsiness, dullness, hebetude, heedlessness, idleness, impassivity, inaction, inactivity, inanition, indifference, indolence, inertia, inertness, insouciance, languor, lassitude, listlessness, passiveness, phlegm, sleep, sleepiness, slowness, sluggishness, slumber, stupor, supineness, torpidity, torpidness, torpor, unconcern, unmindfulness

AND IN THIS DAY AND AGE WHERE INFORMATION IS ABUNDANT....IGNORANCE AND IT'S COUSINS

benightedness, bewilderment, blindness, callowness, creeping meatballism, crudeness, denseness, disregard, dumbness, empty-headedness, fog, greenness, half-knowledge, incapacity, incomprehension, innocence, inscience, insensitivity, mental incapacity, naïveté, nescience, oblivion, obtuseness, philistinism, rawness, sciolism, shallowness, simplicity, unawareness, unconsciousness, uncouthness, unenlightenment, unfamiliarity, unscholarliness, vagueness, bias, discrimination, dogmatism, fanaticism, injustice, Jim Crowism, mindlessness, narrow-mindedness, partiality, provincialism, racialism, racism, sectarianism, sexism, unfairness

And that is just a few.

 

2 Mac has NO prayers to the dead - the RCC DOES!

2 Mac has NO BENEFIT to the dead WHILE dead - the RCC doctrine on purgatory DOES!

2 Mac mentions NOTHING about transferring from a place of torment TO Heaven due to prayers for the dead - the rCC DOES!

2 Mac says NOTHING about indulgences EARNED via a "spritual bank of excess suffering" controlled by the church - the RCC DOES!

How much of a vaccuum must there be between what 2Mac actually SAYS and what the RCC actually says before the RC members here stop claiming that this teaching can be "inserted into the text"?

In Christ,

Bob