Purgatory?

Matt 18:34
This came after Mt 18:26

The servant said " I will pay thee all"
Who can pay the debt all ?

The servant didn't know the nature of his sins and this is a parable for emphasizing the forgiveness of the faults of our neighbors. We can find no clue on Purgatory here. 18:34 mentions the Hell.

 

Do you know why Protestants rejected the Apocrypha?


1) The authors of the Apocrypha didn't claim that they were writing according to the commandment or revelation by God. For example, Isaiah or Jeremiah said, " Jehovah said ... and or Word of Jehovah. but the Apocrypha don't say so.
2) They were not written in the language of then God's people, Hebrew so that they may understand them.

3) They were never referred in the Jewish services.

4) Jesus never quoted them.

5) Disciples never quoted them ( someone mention about Jude)

6) They contradict with Bible sometimes even with themselves. ( Where did Antiocus Ephipanes die?), Prayer to the dead contradicts to Isaiah 8:19 and other verses.

7) They teach immoral things such as assassination, suicide.

It is quite tricky that RC doesn't include Esdras I and Esdras II which condemn severely the Idolatry and Prayer to the Dead, while they insist on Macc I, II.

 

It is very sad that I notice many RC or Purgatory-bound people misunderstand the Bible verses.

1 Cor 3:10 -15

If anyone works very hard for the Lord Jesus but by his or her own effort, not according to Holy Spirit, it will be like building with stubble when it is tested by God's fire, Holy Spirit at the Judgment by Christ. If anyone endeavored according to the guidance of Holy Spirit, the result will be shining as gold. Therefore one should follow the guidance of Holy Spirit. Even if any one works very hard and did a lot of charity in human eyes, if the person did it in human way, then the result will be like stubble or straws.
There is no clue on Purgatory here again!

 

Luke 23:43
Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jehovah's Witness often interpret "today" belonging to I say unto thee.

If we look at the Greek sentence, Semeron should have been before lego in such case.
If not, does it mean that Jesus did not go to Paradise on that day?
In any case, the Robber went to the Paradise with Jesus.
Jesus was talking on that day, why should He mention " today" for meaning that He was talking on that day. There was no need to mention today if today meant " saying today" because nobody didn't know that He was speaking on that day.

In many ways, such argument becomes groundless.

Then the Robber surely went to Paradise along with Jesus Christ, without going to the Purgatory.

How miserable the Purgatory bound people are ! because they are much worse than the Robber at the Cross.

 

Matt 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect .

This is the verse which I like along with Matt 10:25

It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord .

No one can be perfect as the Father.
The only way to become perfect is :
- to be born again by Holy Spirit
- to be transformed by renewing.... acceptable and perfect, will of God (Rom 12:2)
- to put on the Lord Jesus Christ ( Rom 13:14)

This is the target for all believers until the end of their lives, even though they may not achieve it completely.
By relying on what Jesus has done already at the Cross, one can be perfect in the daily life as long as they follow the Holy Spirit ( Rom 8:1)

There is no clue on Purgatory here again.

 

Heb 12:23
to the spirits of just men made perfect .

Verse 12:22 says "ye are come unto mount Sion"

Ye are come already to the spirits of just men perfect.

The tense here is 2 Pl, Perfect, Act. (proseleluthate)

It doesn't say Ye will come! but says Ye are come already !

This denies Purgatory quite well.

 

Phil 2:10
Things under earth


there are many animals under the earth or even human beings live in underground facilities.

If anyone tries to draw a Puragtory from this statement, it is like the way of Evolutionists deriving the theory from a fragments of the bones of fossil claiming that human being was evolved from the monkeys.

 

#1 He calls them "The DEAD" not "The LIVING".

#2 He states that they were "JUDGED" for their mortal sin of idolatry.

#3 He states that WITHOUT the resurrection the entire exercise was pointless. By “contrast” the RCC teaches that those called “THE DEAD” in 2Mac12 are in fact “benefited IN DEATH” WHILE dead – BEFORE the resurrection – for they are taken from the place of torment – Purgatory – and allowed to go into heaven.

#4 He points to the fact that those who FALL ASLEEP are the ones "rewarded". They are called “the dead” and “those that have fallen asleep” and their reward is NOT given apart from the resurrection for “In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

The RCC argues for immediate benefit APART from the resurrection for the dead.

#5. The focus is not on “indulgences” but “atoning Sacrifice” and “Blotting out of SIN” . By contrast the RCC would insert “spiritual bank of excess suffering” that is drawn upon to rush the dead out of purgatory and INTO heaven BEFORE the resurrection!

In Christ,

Bob

 

One final note - the RCC claims that those who die with mortal sin CAN NOT go to Purgatory - they go straight to hell!

So even the RCC would have to deny Purgatory for those idol worshippers of 2Mac 12

 

But Hebrews 12 calls the righteous dead "witnesses". The Psalms invoke the "heavenly hosts", which include the angels who "behold the face of God".

And both the angels and the elders in heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth to God as incense in Rev 8 and 5, respectively.

Plus, just look at the early christian tombs. They invoke prayer both to the righteous dead, and from them on our behalf - for the body of Christ is one. Again, not a specifically Catholic doctrine.

Many OT books don't claim that. So what?

And many of the Jews didn't speak hebrew. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and even the Gospels composed in Greek relays this fact.

 

#1. Is that supposed to be an example of "a prayer TO the dead" or is it a prayer "FOR the dead". Recall that the point from 2 Mac 12 was that those that 2Mac 12 calls "the dEAD" were being "prayed FOR".

Is it your argument from Heb 12 that we are to "pray FOR" the "great cloud of witnesses" (which is in fact a reference to Heb 11" - Abraham, Abel, Enoch etc??

Are you thinking that Heb 12 says "PRAY for the great cloud of witnesses for Abraham is there and he really needs your prayers"??

Or did you simply lose focus entirely?

Obviously Hebrews 12 is not speaking of "Sentient blood - highly conversant and loud".

Is this an example from Psalms of prayers FOR the dead trying to get them out of purgatory?

Is it an example of prayers TO the dead?

IS it an example of praying TO angels?

What is your point?

Are you arguing that IF you can prove that David prayed TO Angels - THEN we should pray to God FOR the dead to be released from some non-heaven place?

If so - that is cramming a lot of "tradition" into the bending of one little text - don't you think?

Is it your claim that the "elders" in Rev 5 are what 2Mac 12 calls "The dead" -- idol worshippers that have died in that case??

Is it your claim that the Rev 5 text makes any mention at all of dead people being prayed for??

IS it your claim that the elders of REv 5 are "dead people" that are being prayed to?? (You know those that 2Mac 12 calls "the DEAD" and "Those who have fallen asleep"??).

Is it your claim that the elders of Rev 5 are being prayed TO?? (whether they are alive or dead)??

There is NO mention at all of anyone praying TO the elders in Rev 5!

There is NO mention of WHAT these elders are (human or ??).

There is no indication that these elders HAVE died or ARE dead!!

Hmm - and yet NO BIBLE AUTHOR will do such a thing!!

Surely IF the practice IS accepted then we expect to SEE them speak of it as we do in the case those tombs.

Yet in scripture we find NO REFERENCE AT ALL to it!

How "instructive". What a great "contrast" when the people DO practice the pagan art of communion with the dead WE SEE them doing it in almost all areas of life - but when they REJECT that pagan practice then it is totally missing FROM ALL documents of the NT and OT!!

How instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Again -- BOTH the 2Mac 12 author AND the author of 1Thess 4 (that would be Paul) - refer to the saints who have died as "The DEAD" and both say that they "fell asleep".

Your idea of saying that the writer in 2Mac 12 was "ill-informed" may be valid on a great many points - but I hardly think that can be said of Paul!

The point remains.

Great book. Inspired. True. "The Living know that they shall die but the dead know not anything".

Notice also in vs 5 - instead of limiting the example to "one old man who dies" - it is "For mankind goes to his Eternal home" 12:5. Directly contradicting the notion that this does not deal with all mankind and does not deal with the subject of our eternal destiny and does not deal with the subject of death and exactly what happens.

Ouch! That is going to be s tough point to refute!!

Don't you have anything of substance to offer in reply to the point?

Oh I see - so pagan idolatry would not be "mortal sin" for the people of God EVEN though 2Mac 12 declares that it was CERTAIN that the death of these idol worshipping jews as direct Judgment from God upon their mortal sin!!

How "odd" that you have to turn a blind eye to the text now.

Good of you to return at least to the RCC point on mortal sin and Purgatory

The RCC is the one that says that you can not commit mortal sin and go to heaven - not me!

The RCC is the one that says things like murder ANd "not going to Church on Sunday" are mortal sins.

You never answered the devastating point FROM 2Mac 12 where that author says the prayer had NO BENEFIT AT ALL in death - that apart from the resurrecion from the dead that prayer "was pointless".

That crushes the RC claim that THE BENEFIT to be reaped is IN DEATH - the soul is transferred from Purgatory to HEAVEN. And when we contrast that man-made-tradition with 2Mac 12 we find in 2Mac12 NO mention of TRANSFER, NO mention of Purgatory, NO mention of the dead going to heaven PRIOR to the resurrection, EXPLICIT point that there is NO BENEFIT AT ALL for the dead in such a prayer APART from the resurrection.

The point remains.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey! Did I already post this??

#1 He calls them "The DEAD" not "The LIVING".

#2 He states that they were "JUDGED" for their mortal sin of idolatry.

#3 He states that WITHOUT the resurrection the entire exercise was pointless. By “contrast” the RCC teaches that those called “THE DEAD” in 2Mac12 are in fact “benefited IN DEATH” WHILE dead – BEFORE the resurrection – for they are taken from the place of torment – Purgatory – and allowed to go into heaven.

#4 He points to the fact that those who FALL ASLEEP are the ones "rewarded". They are called “the dead” and “those that have fallen asleep” and their reward is NOT given apart from the resurrection for “In doing this he acted very well and honorably, taking account of the resurrection.
44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.

The RCC argues for immediate benefit APART from the resurrection for the dead.

#5. The focus is not on “indulgences” but “atoning Sacrifice” and “Blotting out of SIN” . By contrast the RCC would insert “spiritual bank of excess suffering” that is drawn upon to rush the dead out of purgatory and INTO heaven BEFORE the resurrection!

In Christ,

Bob [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

And both the angels and the elders in heaven present the prayers of the saints on earth to God as incense in Rev 8 and 5, respectively.

</font>[/QUOTE]1.
Yes, we are the saints ( 1 Cor 1:2) and our prayers are conveyed to God via angels.
Angels are the workers. Not the dead people prays here.

2. Language
Jesus spoke to Paul in Hebrew ( Acts 26:14) and mentioned Jud and Tittle which are found in Hebrew, not in Greek nor in Aramaic. ( Matt 5:18)
Jesus mentioned the martyrs from Abel to Zechariah. According the Masoretic Text (Hebrew Bible) Zechariah is the last Martyr mentioned in Chronicles as Chronicle is the last one in Hebrew Bible. The Inscription on the Cross was written in Hebrew, and the coins discovered from the site of Bar-Kobar Revolt show the Hebrew writings, Masada Documents and Qumran documents show that Hebrew was still used during Intra-Testamental period.

 

Sure they did.

Paul did:

Wisdom 15:7 - For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: Both the vessels that serve for clean purposes and their opposites, all alike; As to what shall be the use of each vessel of either class the worker in clay is the judge.

Rom. 9:21 - Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]There is no mentioning of Wisdom. For example, when Isaiah is quoted, the author mentioned. Has any author mentioned the Apocrypha?

Romans 9:21 can be found here:

Isaiah 29:16
Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding

Isaiah 45:9
Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Jeremiah 18:6
O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel

There are plenty of mentioning about the Potter parable in OT, and therefore the claim that Paul was referring to AP is ground-least

 

St. Peter teaches us that Jesus decended to the dead on that day and was there three days. Paradise is abraham's bosom.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Where did you find " on that day" and " three days" Please let me know !

 

Ok - so "No reference AT ALL" to anything in Heb 12 looking like "Purgatory" NOR to anyone PRAYING FOR the "Witnesses" NOR of the "Witnesses" offering up their "EXCESS SUFFERING" for fellow dead people.

-- And I assume that you need to simply skip over the "talking blood" section when talking about the "witnesses" right?

So the point is that Paul should NOT speak of the "DEAD in Christ" As though they are "asleep" and neither should 2Mac 12 refer to "THE DEAD" saying that they "fell asleep" - as though THAT would be a good way to speak of death of a person.

In that case "have I got some Bible for you to ignore"

Short takes to see if the NT really does speak about death as “sleep” instead of being even MORE awake and “Alive in Christ”. The contrast between what man’s tradition “needs” and what the Bible says here should be “instructive” for anyone who cares about the difference.

Demonstrates the fact that Even the NT speaks of the dead saints as "asleep" Without trying to argue (decaying bodies are really just sleeping while the Person is in fact not dead – as the RC myths would have it.).

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

In Christ,

Bob

 

Nate's point is instructive. TO GET to Purgatory - step one is to reject the Bible teaching on "The DEAD in Christ" and the 2Mac 12 teaching on "THE DEAD" when it comes to the way that state of a person is "described".

I have to agree with Nate on that point. That is the first part of the Bible teaching on this subject that must be rejected to even begin a discussion on communion with the dead and on making stuff up about verious things the "DEAD in Christ" are doing while dead.

And lest I forget -- Did I already post "This"
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3784/4.html#000052

With all the sections highlighted in bold from 2Mac 12 that "must be ignored" by those who blindly cling to the "traditions of men" as if they are valid doctrine?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Nate,
It is interesting that we can find " the dead are sleeping" even in the quote of 2 Macc 12:45-

45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. There fore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.


The dead are fallen asleep, even though they are alive in the eyes of God.
I mentioned the references in 1 Cor 11:30, 15:20, 1 Thess 4:14, 15.
The dead are not sentient as we read Ecclesiates 9:5. The prayer to the dead is a ridiculous human idea, which is often found is Confucianism and Ancestor worship.