Purgatory?

Matt,

Please be careful about this Trap.

I do commit sins everyday even though I was born again.
But the solution for those sins are returning to the Cross again. There is no other solution than the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Nothing can satisfy God other than the Redemption by Jesus Christ, because no human being is sinless and Jesus is the only one who can pay for out sins. When god forgive my sins after Being born again, He enlightens me again so that I realize even such new sins were included in His forgiveness. Then I thank God the more and then try much more to avoid sinning, and thereby I am sanctified much more. After somewhile I notice I have been changed quite a lot and my old person is diminishing. The change is unimaginable to the unsaved religious people, like church-goers.

I never admit Purgatory. However, let's assume that Purgatory exist.
The Only way to get out of Purgatory would be to rely on the Blood and His Death at the Cross. No human prayer and / or alms-giving will be sufficient to the satisfaction of God. Even our own efforts would not be sufficient for God's Standard. How much insufficient the other persons' prayers and alms-giving would be ?

If anyone can get out of Purgatory by dint of Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, remembering His blood and His crucifixion, then why didn't he do it while he was alive and go to the heaven directly?

Look at 1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is .


Bible is not that complicated as the Purgatory theory: Suddenly we become like Jesus Christ when we meet Him. Does it say that we will come out of the Purgatory?

Matt,
You know the problem with Omni-Presence of Mary, Prayer to the Dead, Idol Making, Idol Worship, Inquisition, and this Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Compulsory Celibacy, Mass ever-asking forgiveness, etc. etc....
Why do you try to defend such wrong teachings?
Christianity is not that falliable.

[ April 23, 2006, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

Neither does the canon. What's your point?

How does being cleansed and perfected in his blood contradict forgivenss though his blood?

That's right. There is a change that takes place. We're raced with a substantially changed nature. That's all the doctrine explicitly says.

No. Punishement isn't payment. Purification is the end, and that purification may or may not be experiecened as fully pleasureable based upon our own attachment to sin. We're attoneing for nothing, and none of the quotes you've given say anything about that.

If I have a personality which is inclined to be jealous, I need to get rid of that before I enter heaven. That is true uncleanliness which defiles, and such thigns will not be in heaven.

When I die and am resurrected, that will no longer be there. That's purgatory in a nutshell. It's the application of Christ's salvific bloodshed - and we all must apply it.

False.

And yet he'll forgive you.

Amen.

The "satisfaction" means only to be reconciled. "Compensation for injury or loss; reparation." It means understanding why everything we did was sinful, and getting past that as our wills are shaped perfectly with Christ's.

His sacrifice was finished. Our part in accepting that sacrifice, appliying it to ourselves, being perfected, and stepping into eternity however is not finished until we've done it.

But Purgatory is precisely what this speaks of, because we become like him. We are cleansed of sin. Purgatory is not a place. It is not confined to time. It can be instantaneous - there is no official teaching on how long it takes.

 

Matt,

Please be careful about this Trap.

I do commit sins everyday even though I was born again.
But the solution for those sins are returning to the Cross again. There is no other solution than the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
Nothing can satisfy God other than the Redemption by Jesus Christ, because no human being is sinless and Jesus is the only one who can pay for out sins. When god forgive my sins after Being born again, He enlightens me again so that I realize even such new sins were included in His forgiveness. Then I thank God the more and then try much more to avoid sinning, and thereby I am sanctified much more. After somewhile I notice I have been changed quite a lot and my old person is diminishing. The change is unimaginable to the unsaved religious people, like church-goers.

I never admit Purgatory. However, let's assume that Purgatory exist.
The Only way to get out of Purgatory would be to rely on the Blood and His Death at the Cross. No human prayer and / or alms-giving will be sufficient to the satisfaction of God. Even our own efforts would not be sufficient for God's Standard. How much insufficient the other persons' prayers and alms-giving would be ?

If anyone can get out of Purgatory by dint of Blood and Death of Jesus Christ, remembering His blood and His crucifixion, then why didn't he do it while he was alive and go to the heaven directly?

Look at 1 John 3:2

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is .


Bible is not that complicated as the Purgatory theory: Suddenly we become like Jesus Christ when we meet Him. Does it say that we will come out of the Purgatory?

Matt,
You know the problem with Omni-Presence of Mary, Prayer to the Dead, Idol Making, Idol Worship, Inquisition, and this Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Compulsory Celibacy, Mass ever-asking forgiveness, etc. etc....
Why do you try to defend such wrong teachings?
Christianity is not that falliable. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Firstly, we're only talking about purgatory on this thread, so I'm not sure why you're raising these other strawman points.

Neither am I necessarily defending purgatory; I'm simply saying that I can understand the theological logic for its existence. If I get killed by a car today, I know that there is a lot of sinfulness still in me which, while forgiven by Jesus' cross and resurrection, is still very much a part of me in reality. My question is this: if I die in that 'state of sin', how am I in reality made perfect to be in the presence of God? I hear what you say about us being 'transformed' when we meet Jesus when we die (or when He comes again), but I puzzle as to how this actually occurs. I know that you say you have changed and I believe you but what if that change is unfinished at the point of your death? Would that change not have to continue in some way after death?

 

There are two questions that have to be answered first.

#1. Are you free to simply "make stuff up" about what happens to resolve your own sinful nature after death? (Spiritual bank of suffering, torment and punishment to follow EVEN for saints etc).

#2. Have you really separated out the difference in one who repents between repentance for sin and the "sinful nature"? (Given that we all agree that the saints are raised to life in the first resurrection WITHOUT their sinful natures).

The DUAL nature battle that we see in Romans 7 is all about the sinful nature of mankind vs the "new Creation" of 2Cor 5. IF you only had the NEW nature - what would still remain for "purgatory" to deal with?

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is a key point.

The RCC thinks "IT MADE UP the Bible" so it can just as easily "MAKE STUFF UP" in the dark ages!

That is a fundamental difference.

Non-Catholics (most of us anyway) believe that the Bible is infallible - came from God and is by contrast NOT merely "the traditions of man" as are the pagan ideas of Catholicism.

That is pretty much basic to this discussion.

Those who start out with the notion that the RCC "IS GOD" could easily see no difference at all between the Word of GOD - and the RCC making stuff up.

Here is a case of the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Christ's day "MAKING STUFF UP".

After having been around about as long as the RCC has been around - they both are found to be doing the same thing.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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#2. It contradicts the teaching in the Gospel on forgiveness through the blood of Christ.
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Try actually READING the RC quotes given here on Purgatory as THEY speak to "torment, Atonement, Punishment, SATISFACTION, suffering" that IS NOT the blood of Christ but the TORMENT of the saints.

Try actually CONTRASTING that with the Atonement of Christ where HE takes OUR punishment due to sin.

In other words "respond to the points made" rather than pretending that you don't understand your own RC sources (debunking your own RC sources) or simply "not reading RC points".

Start with the two posts listed here -

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3784/5.html#000071

Or do you need these same RC sources continually reposted as they refute that argument you have made about Christ doing all that suffering for us???

Further -- IF Purgatory COULD be construed as "Christ paying the punishment for our sins FOR US" then GETTING OUT of Purgatory (indulgences) is getting OUT of the Gospel!

WHY are Catholics so bent on escaping from the Merits of Christ in that case?

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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LS claims that NO such atonement (payment) is made by the sinner for his sins in purgatory...This was ALREADY posted showing that LS' statement is false
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http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3784/5.html#000071

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3784/5.html#000072

The TWO posts in the link above show "SATISFACTION Made, Punishment sufferred, ATONEMENT made, TORMENT endured -- BY THE SAINTS FOR sin -- INSTEAD of Christ for that sin!" --

How much more "obvious" can this be???!!

Christ' was Punished for our sin. Christ ATONED for our sins. Christ made perfect SATISFACTION for our guilt and sin!

The RCC CLAIMS that IT can get the "EXCESS SUFFERING" of saints to be APPLIED to our LEFT OVER SIN to get us out of Purgatory! To save us from the SATISFACTION owed, the ATONEMENT owed, the PUNISHMENT owed for our LEFT over sin - NOT covered by the Blood of Christ!

How much more obvious can this be???

In Christ,

Bob

 

1 John 2:2 "HE is the ATONING SACRIFICE for OUR sins and not for OUR SINS ONLY but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD".

LS simply DENIES that Atonement for SIN is provided by Christ's "substitutionary SACRIFICE" (atonement in OUR behalf) -- and clings to the notion that WE make OUR OWN atonement for sin in Purgatory!!

How sad that the RC "man-made-tradition" is so contrary to the Gospel.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The man-made-tradition of the RCC is that "This righteousness of God IN HIM" is not SUFFICIENT to also account for our venial sins "ATONEMENT". For that SATISFACTION&lt; for that ATONEMENT wwe need "The excess sufferings of the saints" in the spiritual bank of the RCC - an plenary indulgences to "SAVE" us from the TORMENT and PUNISHMENT --satisfaction and ATONEMENT-- needed in Purgatory FOR that sin!

 

There are two questions that have to be answered first.

#1. Are you free to simply "make stuff up" about what happens to resolve your own sinful nature after death? (Spiritual bank of suffering, torment and punishment to follow EVEN for saints etc).

#2. Have you really separated out the difference in one who repents between repentance for sin and the "sinful nature"? (Given that we all agree that the saints are raised to life in the first resurrection WITHOUT their sinful natures).

The DUAL nature battle that we see in Romans 7 is all about the sinful nature of mankind vs the "new Creation" of 2Cor 5. IF you only had the NEW nature - what would still remain for "purgatory" to deal with?

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]#1. No - but we do have gaps which are left to us by Scripture which we can at least speculate on filling eg: how are we transformed into Jesus' image if that process is not completed by the time of our death?

#2 But the question you haven't answered is where that sinful nature goes ie: how is the battle referred to in Romans 7 terminated/ won?

 

There is NO place IN heaven called Purgatory. But we will GO TO HEAVEN "THAT WHERE I am THERE you may be ALSO" John 14:1-3.

Hell is ALSO "A PLACE" for people will be cast INTO Hell!

THERE is no MENTION AT ALL of "PURGATORY" or anyone cast INTO Purgatory -- in the Bible.

But there is a LOT of emphasis on people TRANSFERED OUT of Purgatory in RC "story telling".

 

"SINCE the Church has DIRECT AUTHORITY over her living members, the indulgences which we gain FOR OURSELVES are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN... The Church however does NOT have direct authority over the souls in Purgatory. Indulgences for THEM are offered by way of suffrage - a petition to God begging Him to apply the indulgence to a particular soul...Whether or NOT the indulgence is APPLIED to the soul rests with the mercy of God. We can HOPE that the specified soul will receive the indulgence which we have gained for him; but since we can not know for CERTAIN, the Church allows us to offer more than ONE PLENARY indulgence fo the same departed soul" Faith Explained: P477

 

In the previous post we see "souls IN Purgatory" instead of "IN Heaven" or "IN Hell" or "IN the grave".

Something that RCC just "makes up"!!

Speaking of "making stuff up" here they are "again"

CATHOLIC TEACHING ON PURGATORY

Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment ...That temporal punishment is due to sin, even after the sin itself has been pardoned by God...The whole penitential system of the Church testifies that the voluntary assumption of penitential works ...God requires satisfaction, and will punish sin, and this doctrine involves as its necessary consequence a belief that the sinner failing to do penance in this life may be punished in another world...The Catholic doctrine of purgatory supposes the fact that some die with smaller faults for which there was no true repentance, and also the fact that the temporal penalty due to sin is it times not wholly paid in this life. The proofs for the Catholic position, both in Scripture and in Tradition, are bound up also with the practice of praying for the dead....if the truly penitent die in the love of God , before they have made satisfaction by worthy fruits of penance for their sins of commission and omission, their souls are purified by purgatorial pains after death...the existence of an intermediate state in which the dross of lighter transgressions will be burnt away, and the soul thus purified will be saved...Clement of Alexandria... "the believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes {dies} to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God's righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one...In Origen the doctrine of purgatory is very clear. If a man depart this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials...It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire... Then we pray for the Holy Fathers and Bishops that are dead; and in short for all those who have departed this life in our communion; believing that the souls of those for whom prayers are offered receive very great relief, while this holy and tremendous victim lies upon the altar...St. Augustine...He describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc., and in the resurrection he says there will be some who "have gone through these pains, to which the spirits of the dead are liable...Augustine (De Civ. Dei, lib. XXI, cap.xiii and xvi) declares that the punishment of purgatory is temporary and will cease, at least with the Last Judgment... Augustine in Ps. 37 n. 3, speaks of the pain which purgatorial fire causes as more severe than anything a man can suffer in this life, "gravior erit ignis quam quidquid potest homo pati in hac vita" (P. L., col. 397). Gregory the Great speaks of those who after this life "will expiate their faults by purgatorial flames," and he adds "'that the pain be more intolerable than any one can suffer in this life" (Ps. 3 poenit., n. 1). Following in the footsteps of Gregory , St. Thomas teaches (IV, dist. xxi, q. i, a.1) that besides the separation of the soul from the sight of God , there is the other punishment from fire. "Una poena damni, in quantum scilicet retardantur a divina visione; alia sensus secundum quod ab igne punientur", and St. Bonaventure not only agrees with St. Thomas but adds (IV, dist. xx, p.1, a.1, q. ii) that this punishment by fire is more severe than any punishment which comes to men in this life; "Gravior est omni temporali poena. quam modo sustinet anima carni conjuncta".

 

Council of Trent (1545-1563)
"We constantly hold that purgatory exists, and that the souls of the faithful there detained are helped by the prayers of the faithful."


The mumbo jumbo speech of "There is no THERE to be detained in - since it is not a place" is utterly debunked by the statement above!!

 

It IS in scripture.

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man, and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." Very few of us are perfect now. We are only made perfect through purification, and in classical Christian teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state named "purgatory", "the place of purging of sin".

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in what catholics would call purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Again, this is not the only verse, but it definitly shows many Jews at least had this understanding so it predates Christianity.

Or, if you prefer a book you do have:

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

 

You are reading into Scripture things that are not there--typical for a Catholic.
First, he is not talking of the devil or Satan. He is talking of one's adversary, one whom he has offended. Agree with him. Make things right. When offences come, if things are not made right quickly then they tend to escalate and get even worse.
The whole meaning of this verse is given in the context of the law, expecially the sixth commandment. In other words settle your accounts out of law. It is better that you settle your account with your adversary out of court lest in court you suffer a much greater fate--like spending time in jail (depending on the offence). Agree with thine adversary. Settle with him. This has nothing to do with purgatory. It has to do with earthly matters.
Jesus specifically says "lest thou be cast into prison." It does not speak of purgatory, nor can be construed as such.

Matthew 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
--There is no purgatory here. This is a matter of forgiveness. Jesus is teaching that we should forgive one another. The Lord had forgiven his servant; but his servant had not forgiven his slave. The Lord was therefore angry with his servant's attitude. God does not condone those with an unforgiving spirit. Study the "Lord's Prayer," as you find in Mat.6, and be sure to read the verses immediately following on forgiveness. The Lord puts a premium on forgiving one another. There is nothing here about purgatory.

Luke 12:58-59 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.
--Again this has to do with court, and the sixth commandment. Agree with thine adversary out of court. If it goes to court before the judge the outcome will be far worse for you. It has nothing to do with purgatory. Don't read into Scripture things that are not there.

Hogwash! The Old English word "perfect" means complete or mature. In the Greek it is "teleios." It does not mean perfect as in sinless. Jesus would not give his disciples a command that would be impossible to keep. As God was complete in His attributes, so he expected his disciples to be complete: just, fair, holy, loving, merciful, kind, (the fruit of the Spirit). The only attributes that they could not emulate are those that are attributable to God alone: omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience.
There is no purgatory in this verse.

The context is at the Lord's Coming.
Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
The audience is the disciples. That is who he is speaking to.
The application seems to be to all.
Luke 12:41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

Here is the faithful and wise servant's lot (the believer's):
Luke 12:43-44 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
He seems to be speaking of the Millennial Kingdom though the application could be made to Heaven.

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
--This seems to be speaking of the unbeliever's lot. If it is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom it is speaking of the punishment that he will receive at that time. If not, it is speaking of Hell. Either way it has no reference to purgatory. You can't read into Scripture things that are not there.

You are way off here.
There is no state of purgation. You are making this up.
Thre is no purgatory. You are making this up.
There are no venial sins. You are making this up.
You have made up a man-made doctrine by reading into Scripture things that are not there.
This is speaking of the judgement seat of Christ where, as it says, the works of all the believers, will be judged. This is not the salvation of believers being judged, but their works. It has to do with the giving out of rewards accordingly.
Some people's works will count for nothing and will be burned up just as wood, hay and stubble are burned up. Other's works (done with a pure heart for the Lord) will endure the fire, as gold silver and precious stones endure fire and become even more refined. They are the ones that will receive reward for their works. But no one will be lost. All will be saved, some so as by fire. That is they may have no works to give to the Saviour, all their works may be burned, but they themselves will be saved. There is no purgatory. This simply has to do with the judgement of the works of the believers. Read it again. There is not purgatory. There is no such thing as venial sins. Don't read into Scripture things that are not there.

Nonsense!! Here is a quote from Albert Barnes:

Do you have any proof that Onesiphorus was dead?

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
--The Book of Hebrews is a book of contrasts. Again you fail to read the context. He was contrasting how the Israelites had come to Mount Sinai where they received the Law of Moses and were incorporated as one assembly into one nation under God. The key word in Hebrews is "better."
But we "Christians" have something better.
We, in heaven, will have one large general assembly in heaven composed of all just men who have been made perfect throught the blood of Christ. There is no purgatory here.
Read Heb.9:22
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

There is no purgatory in the Bible. It is a fictious man-made doctrine.
I will not deal with the other two references as they are outside the canon of Scripture.
DHK

 

What was it he said to the woman in adultery? "Go, and sin no more".

 

What was it he said to the woman in adultery? "Go, and sin no more". </font>[/QUOTE]The sin was the sin of adultery. Keep things in context. She was perfectly capable of not committing adultery any more.

 

I make it "a point" never to talk to SDAs that have died. How about you?

I make it "a point" to ACCEPT the Words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in John 11 speaking of Lazarus the PERSON as "ASLEEP"

I make it "a point" to ACCEPT the words of Paul in 1Thess 4 telling us that ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST have "fallen asleep"!

I make it "a point" to ACCEPT the Words of Paul in 1Cor 15 telling us that ONLY those who "are alive to the end" will NOT sleep the sleep of death. "We shall not ALL sleep but we shall ALL be changed" speaking of the saints - those that have fallen asleep and those that are alive and remain!

How about you?

IN ALL these texts speaking EXPLICITLY of those that "fell asleep" WE SEE NO reference AT ALL to "Those that went to PURGATORY"!!

So you commit the fallacy of equivocation between what we DO SEE IN THE TEXT about those who "have fallen asleep" and the VOID that we find whenever we search for PURGATORY in scripture!!

How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob