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Featured Jesus is Israel. How so?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019.

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  1. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Jesus is Israel.

    “Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” Galatians 3:16 (KJV 1900)

    Moses and Paul called Abraham’s seed both Hebrews and Israel. So Abraham's seed (Jesus) is Israel.

    “Now there was no smith found throughout all the land of Israel: for the Philistines said, Lest the Hebrews make them swords or spears:” (1 Samuel 13:19)


    “Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;” (Philippians 3:5)


    “And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The Lord God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days’ journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the Lord our God.” (Exodus 3:18)


    “Then said the princes of the Philistines, What do these Hebrews here? And Achish said unto the princes of the Philistines, Is not this David, the servant of Saul the king of Israel, which hath been with me these days, or these years, and I have found no fault in him since he fell unto me unto this day?” (1 Samuel 29:3)


    “Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they the seed of Abraham? So am I.” (2 Corinthians 11:22)

    Therefore Jesus IS Israel, Abraham’s Seed (Singular Galatians 3:16) along with believers. “And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 (KJV 1900) This means believers are Israel too.

    “For all the promises of God in him [Jesus] are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” 2 Corinthians 1:20 (KJV 1900)

    Matthew reiterates this when he quotes Hosea;

    “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, And called my son out of Egypt.” (Hosea 11:1)

    “And [Jesus] was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” (Matthew 2:15)

    The Church of Believers are called by God's name - Israel.

    “If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 (KJV 1900)
     
    #1 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There is spiritual Isreal, the Church, but also national isreal that will one day return to their God when Messiah Jesus comes back!
     
    #2 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  3. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    This is not so. Jesus broke off the unbelievers when he abolished circumcision on the cross. Nothing remains to make one a Physical Biblical Jew or physical member of Israel. Only those who accept Christ will be grafted back into Israel. They remain as gentiles with Jewish customs unless that happens. They remain under God's wrath until the end of the world.


    “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” John 3:36 (KJV 1900)

    “forbidding us to speak to the nations that they might be saved, to fill up their sins always, but the anger did come upon them—to the end!” 1 Thessalonians 2:16 (YLT)
     
    #3 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are physical jews, who when they receive jesus as Messiah become spiritual Jews, and part of true Israel then. God has not forgotten them, as once Jerusalem is down being trodden by Gentiles, he will turn to deal with the national jews to save them!
     
    #4 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  5. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    Christ abolished unbelieving physical Jews from being Biblical Jews when he abolished circumcision.
     
    #5 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are still Jews of descendants of Abraham in the flesh, but need to get saved to be his spiritual descendants!
     
    #6 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  7. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:” Romans 2:28 (KJV 1900)

    “That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.” Romans 9:8 (KJV 1900)
     
    #7 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  8. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    But Paul seems to refine his idea further by the time we get to Romans 11.

    Romans 11:25-29 (KJV):

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
    26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

    Paul is still referring to Israel in terms of physical Israel (i.e. "blindness in part is happened to Israel"). If he understood Israel to consist only of believers at this point, then his statement of partial blindness would make little sense.

    The way I read Paul's perspective on Israel is that God's promises were made to Israel but are applicable only to believers within Israel. Gentiles must be "grafted in" because the promises (i.e. the New Covenant) were not made to the Gentiles. By grafting in Gentiles who believe, the promises made to Israel are applicable both to Jews and Gentiles.

    I do not think there is basis for a hard distinction between Israel and the church as dispensationalists tend to make. Rather, the promises made to Israel are still valid (but only to the Israel of faith), and Gentiles have access to share in these promises by being grafted in under the terms of the New Covenant.
     
    #8 StefanM, Oct 30, 2019
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  9. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    “And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.” Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900)
     
    #9 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  10. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    I don't see any conflict. The promises were made to the nation of Israel, but the unbelievers were cut off from inheriting those promises. Only those who have faith in Christ have any claim to the promises. Christians physically descended from Israel have claim to the promises of God to Israel because they are 1) part of Israel and 2) have not been cut off due to unbelief.

    An unbeliever physically descended from Israel would still not be a gentile, but he would be ineligible to inherit the promises. If he comes to faith in Christ, then his position as part of Israel is "restored" (so to speak) for the purposes of God's promises to Israel.

    A gentile unbeliever has no basis to claim anything promised to Israel, but under the New Covenant, God brings in gentiles who are saved by grace through faith in Christ. They enjoy the benefit of the promises made to Israel, despite not having any claim to them previously.

    Four groups exist:

    Unbelieving Jews: Because they descended from Israel, their "starting place," as it were, in terms of the covenants is to inherit the promises made to Israel. However, due to their unbelief, they have been rejected.

    Jews who believe in Christ: Because they descended from Israel, they have the same "starting place," but they are not cut off from inheriting the promises made to Israel because they are the remnant (true Israel) due to their faith in Christ.

    Unbelieving Gentiles: They have no inheritance claim to Israel's promises, and they remain in this state due to their unbelief.

    Gentiles who believe in Christ: They do not have any inheritance claim to Israel's promises because they are not "of Israel" in any natural sense, but they are grafted in to share the promises inherited by true Israel (believing Jews) under the terms of the New Covenant through faith in Christ.
     
    #10 StefanM, Oct 30, 2019
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  11. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    The nation of Israel ceased to exist. God removed all physical unbelieving Jews making them gentiles when he abolished circumcision. Israel since then is Spiritual only made up of believers. Jesus IS Israel along with believers. And the Land of Israel is the whole world, not just Canaan. According to Peter Jesus rules from David's throne in heavenly Jerusalem above. (The millennium is a Pharisee doctrine that crept into the church). But was refuted by the Council of Chalcedon and the Council of Ephesus 431 as heresy.
     
    #11 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God still has Israel as in a Jewish nation in His future timetable plans....
     
    #12 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul still saw physical Jews as being jewish, but not part of spiritual israel unless born again, but still national Israel.
     
    #13 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  14. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    This is Dispensationalism and Premillennialism. Jesus is Amillennial and so is scripture.
     
    #14 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  15. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Your position fails to account for Paul's language in Romans 11. Paul still refers to Israel as a distinct entity: "a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in" (Rom. 11:25, ESV). Paul must be writing about unbelievers in Israel (in a physical sense), or his argument would make no sense at all.

    The language does not fit your argument. If the unbelieving Jews became Gentiles, then what point would Paul be making in referring to a partial hardening of Israel? Under your argument, they would not be merely hardened; they would entirely lose their status as part of Israel.

    It is much more consistent with Paul's train of thought to view his perspective on unbelieving Jews as the hardened, disinherited part of physical Israel.
     
    #15 StefanM, Oct 30, 2019
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  16. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    They were national Israel until AD 70 when God abolished all but spiritual Israel.
     
    #16 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  17. 1689Dave

    1689Dave Well-Known Member

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    But Rom 11 says only those who believe will be reattached to what? Israel. Meaning they are not israel.
     
    #17 1689Dave, Oct 30, 2019
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not just Dispy,as covenant and historical premil see some type of plan for physical Israel in end, as do Post mils!
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    They are called natural branches of Israel.....
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He still has Ezekiel 38-39 for them....
     
    #20 Yeshua1, Oct 30, 2019
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