Featured Romans 3:10-20

Are you sure that that is what he is stating?
I think you really should be looking more closely, MB.

What I see is the Bible teaching that a person has faith, because it was given to them as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), and they believed on Christ because it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Their faith did not purchase salvation...salvation is a gift, and so is faith.

Now you're seeing it!

Bingo!
The same exact things happened to me in 1978 during the preaching of His word.

Again, now you're seeing it.
YOU were not unwilling to respond.

Count yourself blessed ( Psalms 1:1, Psalms 65:4 ), sir.

Your education began when God graciously revealed Himself to you through His word, and through His Spirit.

How and why a person believes on Christ doesn't just stop at our perspective, MB.
God's word tells us the "how" and "why".

It's God's perspective that really makes all the difference.
Our gratitude stems from what He did for us...not what happened to us and how we reacted to it.

Agreed.

Again, count yourself blessed along with the many that are saved.

That, MB, is yet another thing that we both agree on.
I don't follow John Calvin or Jakob Hermannszoon ( Arminius ) either.

I follow my Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ... who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

Paul says it well when he describes to Timothy what God did to save him (Paul).

1 Timothy 1:12-14,16-17
I thank him who has given me strength, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he judged me faithful, appointing me to his service, though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.

But I received mercy for this reason, that in me, as the foremost, Jesus Christ might display his perfect patience as an example to those who were to believe in him for eternal life. To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

 

I have never seen one claim that. I have seen them claim that one must be first. regenerated in order to have faith but even if you are correct if they themselves do not claim it or agree to it then it is not what they believe.

 

Thank you for your fair description.

No one is claiming that we are saved apart from faith. The claim is that regeneration is prior to faith, which is a gift from God. We are saved by grace through that faith.

 

As Revmitchell explained, no one claims salvation precedes faith. The distinction would be that regeneration is not considered synonymous with salvation. Faith is required for justification, and that faith is a gift from God. God regenerates, and God gives faith, which is the basis upon which we are justified. It is indeed our faith, but it is our faith only because God has given it to us. The same goes for our righteousness. It is only ours because it is Christ's righteousness imputed to us.

As far as having only one path, I agree with you. But we aren't talking about salvation through any name but the name of Jesus. The debate is merely about some of the details of how that happens. Those details are significant, and it is not possible for both systems to be completely true (it is also possible, even likely, that both are flawed in some ways).

My point on labels is to be careful. When someone claims to be a Calvinist, for instance, they are not denying Christ. In that person's mind, they believe that Calvinism is the best way to understand some of the elements of theology. They are not trying to associate themselves with Calvin vs. Jesus. It's not so much of a problem on the Arminian side because even those who accept the Arminian label aren't as likely to use it. Wesleyans are more likely to use a label, and theirs is likely the most common form of actual Arminianism these days.

Among Baptists, some mixed form (sometimes haphazard, sometimes convictional) of belief is a very common theological framework. A good label doesn't really exist because there isn't really a distinct theological "school", so to speak. That's ok. If the terms do not describe you, then we shouldn't impose the term on you specifically.

My point is that those who do feel comfortable calling themselves Calvinist or Arminians or Wesleyans or Lutherans, etc., are not trying to affiliate themselves with a system of theology vs. claiming Christ. I am always wary of statements that imply or explicitly state such a thing because I think they have the potential to cause additional division in a discussion of an already difficult topic.

I think we can disagree while still recognizing each other as brothers and sisters in Christ peacefully. I know I sometimes fail to live up to that, and I do apologize if I have failed here.

Personally, I don't know that I'm completely comfortable with calling myself a Calvinist. I'd be more likely to say that my soteriological beliefs are Calvinistic. I would not claim to be "Reformed" because I don't endorse Covenant Theology and some other elements in the "Reformed" tradition.

 

I do.
As I see Scripture developing, God's decision to save someone ( salvation ), Ephesians 1:4-5, precedes their being made aware of it by the preaching of the Gospel to them, and the work of the Holy Spirit in one of God's elect.

I also maintain that regeneration ( what many "non-Calvinists" call "salvation", because to me, they consider the moment of belief = the moment of salvation ) precedes faith, and that faith is the evidence of being made alive by the Holy Ghost.

Faith then grows by the Lord's careful application ( read allowing ) of trials and tribulations.

To me, it isn't.
However, regeneration must occur if someone is to have a heart-to-heart relationship with the living God.

Therefore, regeneration is a necessary element of being saved.

I agree.

Faith is "required", in that it is, once again, the necessary evidence that accompanies the gift of eternal life...what many call, "salvation".
As I see it, biblical salvation happens for the believer long before they were ever aware of it.
Salvation also happens on Judgment Day, when they are saved from His wrath...

In many ways, salvation is not only past, but present and future.
That may confuse some here, but since God's elect were never in danger of His wrath, then they were always saved and will be saved.
Nothing can ever stand in the way of that.

In other words, once the Lord sets His mind on something, it will come to pass.

As for considering myself a "Calvinist", I personally do not.
I consider myself a Christian, and a Bible believer.

I don't endorse any systematic theology, because to me, the understanding of God's word ( while I think that it can be systematized in a limited fashion ), cannot be fully understood by using the constructs of man-made "Bible colleges" and things like "hermenuetics", but can only be taught by the Holy Spirit ( 1 John 2:20-27 ).
To put it another way, only God's children can ever fully understand His words.

Those words are spiritual, and are reserved for those who have "ears to hear" and those to whom it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven.

 

What does the above have to do with Romans 3:10-18?

"Total Depravity" / "Total Inability" / "Total Rebellion" is where we as men all start.

The believer / elect / child of God / Christ's sheep is rescued ( "called" ) by God ( at some point in their life ) from their pit of sin and love for it, and then goes on to discover, by God's word, that His favor was bestowed on them through no effort of their own ( Romans 10:20 ).
Blind-sided by His grace, they gladly rejoice in the knowledge of Jesus Christ and are then placed on a life of walking a narrow path by the power of His Spirit, despite their failings in the flesh.

Basically put, "total depravity" is the reason we are condemned to Hell as a race.
We did this to ourselves, and God allowed us to do it by giving us over to that which we desired.

That is what is developed in Romans 1:18-32 and John 3:19-20.
It's what makes it impossible for a person to truly repent.
The death grip that mankind has on disobeying God has a much greater appeal to us than repenting does.

God then has to change the heart, or no one would ever seek Him.
This is what I see after many years of studying His word.

Mankind, at its worst...were it not for the amazing grace of a kind and merciful Saviour.
As someone once said, "Were it not for God's grace to some, Heaven would have none."

There is none that truly seeks Him, from the heart.
That said, the problem of the heart must first be dealt with, before man can seek Him.

 

I see it a little different... In Ephesians 2 the Faith that is talking about is not our faith but the faith of the Son Of God Jesus Christ... If it is your faith that saves you, you are welcome to it... This Sovereign Grace Primitive Baptist brother reads it somewhat different... If you are claiming it is your faith then it is a work... It is a work alright but the work belongs to Christ and he is the only one that could satisfy and offended God... He stood in our room and stead and accomplished what it was impossible for us to do!

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As I understand scripture the Apostle Paul is telling the gentiles of the Ephesian church that because of Gods mercy and grace and trusting the faith of his Son Jesus Christ to carry out his will... It was through his faith and not ours and the gift we received of God is eternal salvation... God gets all the credit man gets none... Anything less than that makes these verses nonsense... Brother Glen

 

Well said, sir.
Amen.

 

Come on!!!! it proves TOTAL STUPIDITY.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.



I got more evidence for TOTAL STUPIDITY than TOTAL DEPRAVITY.

 

Yea when we start adding our own characterization of others beliefs we create a strawman. If one rejects said characterization and we ignore them and continue to push it anyway it creates the hostility in these posts, lacks charity, and is quite arrogant. It needs to stop

 

" they believe that Calvinism is the best way to understand some of the elements of theology."

It claims to be the ONLY way to understand ANY element of theology.

It sounds like a mess of trying to get the story straight from a lie. All I got to do is point to personal testimony none of which follow their own ordo salutis.

Every Calvinist reborn story/testimony.......doesn't fit the Calvinist order of salvation. They can't even get their own personal story straight and have to redo the story.

 

"Basically put, "total depravity" is the reason we are condemned to Hell as a race."

Show one verse of anyone being condemned to hell.


"The death grip that mankind has on disobeying God has a much greater appeal to us than repenting does."
Only folks who think SATAN is GREATER than God can conclude so.


"God then has to change the heart, or no one would ever seek Him."
Nonsense. Even God has to judicially HARDEN a person's heart.

Romans 9
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

God hardened Pharaoh's. Thats no problem if your common sense is two cans short of a six pack.
But if you have common sense, there can't be anything there to harden since pharaoh with out a doubt already starts totally depraved.



Romans 11

11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.


Is Paul's plan to make his reprobate Jews Jealous going to work? Is he going to save some of them by making them Jealous.


Matthew 23
37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling.

The only way this passage works in Calvinism is if you can convince me Jesus is an absolute moron. It is a shame that anyone can get suckered into something so stupid after reading this verse.

He wanted to save everyone but can't do it or is faking it since he hates people unconditionally since the foundation of creation.

 

Basically put, our sin condemns us as lawbreakers and rebels against the Supreme King. God justly condemns us.

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.
For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.
This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

 

You show your legalism in your post.
God chooses to graciously regenerate (make alive with Christ) and give faith, so that we will repent and do the good works that God has ordained for us.
There is no human effort to overcome our inability and have our own faith. That is your stumbling block. You have a salvation based upon legalistic works rather than grace alone.