Our people in Heaven

The doctrine of soul sleep is not taught in the Bible. It is a man-made doctrine. I don't know when it first came into existence. Perhaps it was Ellen G. White that invented it. Either way it is one of the distinguishing marks of the SDA, Ellen G. White's doctrine, not of the Bible.
Thus it is not a cheap shot.
DHK

 

Maybe Im not even understanding what "soul sleep" means, or at least what people think it means.

I dont really know what "state" someone is in while in the grave. I know the Bible says the dead when in the graves shall "hear His voice" like Lazarus did.

as far as the details go though, I dont know beond that. The bible says they dont know whats going on ,,,on earth, etc...

honestly though, Im just going by what I think the Bible says.

 

As it turns out - These texts are IN the Bible even though many insist "they are not".

Notice the "inconvenient details" as these texts show us "THE PERSON" that "falls asleep" while it is the "body parts" that decay and "return to dust"!

Notice here the entire purpose of the 1Thess 4 information on the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ - is explicitly to address the issue of Christians who are grieving over the loss of friends/relatives who have died. In this context it appears that they are concerned for the welfare of those "dead in Christ".

Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”

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Exercise for the reader: Count the number of times the NT Bible writers speak of the PERSON as being "asleep" in the texts said "not to exist" that are listed above.

As you read those "not the bible texts" (as some have labeled them here) try to "imagine" how it is that man-made tradition could make you view these texts as "not the Bible".

What kind of koolaid would that be?

 

this isnt fitting together in my mind... if your spirit is your breath and that goes back to God who gave it at death... and body plus spirit equals your soul... then how can you be "asleep" in the grave? yet it does say that we are asleep

it even says those who are asleep in the graves will hear His voice

that seems pretty confusing, actually.

But there is no way we can be "in heaven".. even so.. when we die.

 

this thing is acting weird...

 

In Eccl 12 we see that "the spirit of mankind" goes to God at death. Since the "old tent" is not raised (see 2Cor 5:1-5) rather we are given an entirely NEW body "a heavenly one made eternal in the heavens) at the resurrection - we really don't "need" the decaying "Body parts" to come back. THE PERSON is the spirit that goes back to God. (In fact that spirit of all mankind goes back to God "who gave it").

That is the "essence" of the PERSON - it is "Who you are". The term for "grave" is Hades or Sheol (in the case of Dan 12 it is Sheol) which is the concept of the grave including more than the idea of "dirt and a hole" - it is the all that takes place at the death of the person - including the spirit of the person that returns to God.

The rotting flesh - the decaying "body parts" are not "sleeping". They are going to 'dust' - to "nothingness". That dust "is not asleep" neither does God have to go chasing your old "carbon atoms" to assemble you again at the resurrection. In 1Cor 15 Paul says that what you sow in the ground IS NOT what you reap.

You sow the mortal, decaying "going to nothing" body but what is raised is the PERSON with an IMMORTAL body MADE In heaven - eternal -- at the resurrection.

Often may hear an enthusiastic presentation about how people are nothing more than their flesh and they "cease to exist" when they are dead. But Christ claims they DO exist - but they are dormant - asleep. This can only be true of the "spirit that returns to God who gave it".

It is a mistake to "Go too far" in trying to prove the state of the dead "AS IF" we had "humanity in a test tube". The truth is we do not know the infinite mystery of God in how He preserves a human life THROUGH death and INTO the resurrection.

When you read Bible doctrine - often what you have is "boundary points" that you dare not go beyond. But that does not give you infinite knowledge about the mystery INSIDE those boundaries.

Clearly in the case of the nature of mankind - we have the "boundary points" that the person is "Asleep" the spirit "returns to God who gave it" and there is no activity being done by that person IN death. But adding a bunch of stuff about the person "not existing" should not be done.

Better to leave it as "The person is alseep" as Christ and the Bible writers state it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Good idea. And then I will just keep "repeating" the NT texts that explicitly SPEAK to the PERSON being "ASLEEP" in death - so you can keep claiming those texts are all written by Ellen White!

I think we have a good system going here.

Paul points to the resurrection of the BODY for that PERSON as the ONLY HOPE for the saints! In other words He does NOT say "THEY ARE NOW EVER WITH THE LORD" in 1Thess 4 RATHER he directs us into the future - at the rapture of the church - at the FIRST resurrection - the resurrection of the just at the appearing of Christ and says "COMFORT one another with these words" stating the resurrection facts and adding "IN THIS WAY shall we EVER be WITH the LORD".

In the same way Christ points to that SAME event in John 14 "I WILL come again and RECEIVE you unto Myself that WHERE I am THERE you may be ALSO".

Never do se see "the DEAD in Christ are now EVER WITH the LORD".

(though we HAVE seen people post on this thread the MADE up idea that "TO BE DEAD is to BE WITH the Lord").

But as noted earlier - simply "making stuff up" is not the same thing as reading it from scripture.

Is it your claim that the PERSON is in the grave - not just the decaying body parts????

Recall that you already stated that the PERSON is "asleep" in death.

You seem to be contradicting yourself - again.

When you use the personnal pronoun "THEIR" you appear to be talking about the PERSON that you earlier stated as being "ASLEEP".

Is it your argument that the decaying "turning to dust" body parts are ASLEEP INSTEAD of the PERSON?

I agree with your use of the personal pronouns here showing that it is the PERSON that is the dead in Christ not merely decaying body parts.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is true. When the spirit of mankind "that returns to God who gave it" at death - (in which case the PERSON has fallen ASLEEP in death) is returned to a body they are RESURRECTED and will stand before God NO LONGER "asleep" in death.

Further it is true that there are TWO resurrections and the FIRST one being the one we see in 1Thess 4 and stated to be the FIRST in Rev 20!

Those RAISED in that resurrection will no longer BE asleep - no longer BE the "DEAD in Christ" they will be alive once again. In new bodies - eternal bodies of 2Cor 5!

(BTW - there is no "body sharing" going on at the resurrection)

In Christ,

Bob

 

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Christ did not say “our friend’s body sleeps I go that I may wake IT”
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???

 

I had mentioned it before, but Athenagoras, in 177AD, described death and sleep as "similar states", though acknowledging the people as alive in some sense.
And the theory of "psychopannichism" [sp?] did come up every now and then throughout Church history, so EGW did not make it up.
With all the dispute as to people being "bodies" or "spirits" or bodies or spirits dying or sleeping, it seems that saoul, body and spirit constitute the whole person, and this trichotomy is supposed to be one of the ways in which we are made in the 'image' of the triune God. It also would explain why the Resurrection is so vital to the person's eternal existence; "else, those who have fallen asleep in Christ have PERISHED".

 

Like the trees electing a leader?

Like the parable of "Forgiveness revoked" Matt 18?

There is NO definition for parable saying that "it must happen to be a parable". Making that kind of thing up - does not make it fact.

Now the "real" issue -- if you are going to argue for the living dead from Luke 16 - then go ahead and quote the chapter "in detail" -- or simply wait for me to do it. (Because you just "know" that I will)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hmm - might have to agree with Eric B

 

??? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Intead of "wake IT" and speaking of "HIS BODY" Christ speaks directly of LAZARUS the PERSON saying that He goes to WAKE HIM!

Clearly.