How could Jesus pay for our sins with a finite sacrifice?

Rom 1:3-4 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:


Heb 2:16-18 16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.


Heb 4:14-16 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


The Lord Jesus Christ was fully man, and fully God. He was able to be tempted in all points as we are, because He truly was one of us. He took upon Himself our sinful fallen natures, yet lived without sin. This is the mystery of Godliness.


1 Tim 3:16 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Christ took our human, fallen natures, and lived a life of perfect obedience in the flesh, by the Spirit. This life of perfect obedience lead Him directly to the cross. The cross is the only place that beings with fallen natures can be lead by the Spirit of God. The Cross is the symbol of death, and every sinner must die. We will either choose to die with Christ now, by faith, or we will die the second death later. This is why Jesus died for humanity, instead of burning in hell forever for humanity. He died the second death for each and every one of us, if we would only care to accept it.


Rom 5:6-21 6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

It is through Christ’s death that we are saved. He was one of us, when He died we all died with Him, thus the demands of the law were fulfilled. Christ has done this for us. Just as we were all in Adam and Eve when they sinned, so were we all in Christ when He died on the cross. Not that we chose do be in either, but the effects of both are upon us. Now we must choose. Will we follow in Christ’s footsteps, in the righteous act of His life, or will we remain in rebellion against God and reject that which has been done for us by Jesus Christ His Son. Christ’s death on the cross is the righteous act spoken of above, by which we are saved.


Phil 2:5-11 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christ was obedient even unto death. This is the mind that God wants us to have through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The other mind is of Satan, who being a created being, and inferior to God, thought it his place to be equal with God. He would not humble himself before God, but rather rebelled against God, and would kill for his own exaltation. The Son however, was equal with God, but gave all that up for us, came and served us, and even died at our hands, and because of our sins, that He might save us. All this to show us what disobedience really was, that is, the desire to take God’s place, which is first in everything. Or in other words, to kill God, which we did through His Son Jesus Christ. All this leads to death.

Thus the Son of God became one of us, and died the death we deserve, the second death, so that we could have the life which He lived for us, which is eternal. Make no mistake about it, the wages of sin is death (Rom. 6:23) So now, will we die with Christ that He might live within us, or will we refuse to die, and still choose ourselves as number one in this life. The latter will of course ultimately result in death, for there is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof is death (Prv. 14:12)


Rom 6:1-18 1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We are only made free from sin, by dying with Jesus Christ on the cross. Thus we are forgiven, and freed from sin to live unto righteousness. We must pick up the cross and follow Jesus. The false doctrine of the immortality of the soul is a direct attack upon the gospel of Jesus Christ.


Matt 10:38-39 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matt 16:24-25 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Mark 8:34-36 34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

Luke 9:23-25 23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Luke 14:27 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

The cross is a symbol of death. Your death, and my death. Jesus Christ was fully one of us. As one of us, He chose rather to die, than to disobey His Father. When He died on the cross, His sinful, fallen nature never lived again. It died the second death. It was our sinful fallen nature, that He became for us, that was nailed to the cross. All the sins of our nature were put upon Him, and God the Father truly turned His back upon God the Son. The penalty for sin, which is death, was paid. Now all who choose to be in Christ, are justified. Having been so, Christ may dwell within them, through His Holy Spirit, thus they are sanctified. Being in Christ justifies. Christ being in us, sanctifies. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The fact that Christ’s fallen human nature did not rise again when He did, is our salvation. This is what He crucified, that we might enter into this experience with Him by faith. In the end, at the resurrection, this mortal shall put on immortality, and this corruption, must be made incorruptible. This is the promise of our salvation.

1 Cor 15:50-57 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the gospel of Jesus Christ which cannot be properly understood by those who accept the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. This lie from Satan perverts the gospel of Jesus Christ. Apart from undermining the gospel, the doctrine of the immortality of the soul also leads to the belief that God will burn the wicked in the fires of hell throughout the endless ages of eternity. Thus God is seen as a worse tyrant than Satan himself. Creating countless billions of beings, knowing that He will punish them with unspeakable pain and agony for eternity. The Devil loves this lie. It is his purpose to completely malign the character of God on earth, and thereby destroy countless souls.


Heb 2:14-18 14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Xdisciplex: What I don't understand is how Jesus paid for our sins.

HP: You are pointing out a clear problem of the literal payment theory. The transaction that was accomplished by Christ’s suffering and death was not a literal payment for sins as the literal payment theory implies. By Christ’s suffering and death, God upheld the penalty of the law while at the same time made a way for God to governmentally treat the sinner who would fulfill the conditions God demands of the sinner, i.e., to repent, have faith, and continue in obedience till the end, to be treated governmentally as if though he had not sinned. The atonement is best seen as a governmental pardon which makes ‘possible’ the salvation of all men and encompasses all sin, by the sacrificial death of Christ, and not as any literal payment for the specific sins of a select or elect few. 1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Jesus paid the debt that all mankind owes for each sin committed in all of time.

The suffering at the hands of sinful men was not "what is owed". Rather it was the supernatural suffering - endured in the Garden of Gethesemane and on the cross. The wrath of God against sin! The aggregate sum of all debt owed by all of mankind for all the sin of the world.

Atonement.

But the wicked acts of men - were simply the external "natural suffering" that illustrates in picture form for us that supernatural suffering He endured for us!

On the Cross He made the "Atoning Sacrifice" for OUR sin and not for OUR sins only "but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

Mankind will suffer in the lake of fire - but then as we see in Matt 10 "God will DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fire".

And in Matt 10 the argument is made that JUST as MANKIND today can DESTROY the body but NOT the soul - so it will be that God will DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in hell fire - in the second death - in the lake of fire!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I suppose that an answer to the OP question would be that, since Jesus was both God and Man, and that the divine part of Him is infinite, then His death is also an infinite sacrifice.

Xdisciplex, I would recomment J I Packer's The Logic of Penal Substitutionary Atonement which, although for the reasons I've given on the previous page I don't agree with it, nevertheless puts forward some good answers to the problems raised by your question.

 

xdisciplex

are you an Atheist?

because I cant help but notice that you seem to always ask all the same questions they ask on Christian Message Boards to try to cause people to doubt Christianity.

 

Heb 10:1-10 has to be "read" as in all ten verses.

It is pointing to the REPLACEMENT of all animal sacrifices by the one physical death - physical sacrifice of Christ.

It does not mention "Spiritual suffering" of the animals nor of Christ.

The point in Heb 10 is to point to the end of the sacrificial system showing how all this pointed forward to the real, literal, physical sacrifice of Christ.

But in Heb 2 the writer "already" told us that Christ "tasted the sufferings of death for EVERY man". He sufferred in our place according to Isaiah 53, - taking the punishment "due" to each one of us.

In 2Cor 5 God says that "He was made to be SIN in our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

They specifically point to the spiritual suffering.

In the Garden of Gethsemane - BEFORE a single Romans soldier or Jew appears on the scene to torment Christ - we see such suffering, such agony - that He sweats great drops of blood!

Medical science knows of that condition and that it is an indicator of great suffering. Christ sufferred for us - FAR beyond what is SEEN in the physical realm - as awful as that was!

But if the measure is just "physical" there have been other's who died after going through much longer torments "physically". The outward suffering was for our "benefit" that we might see and appreciate the reality of the suffering done in our behalf.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The concept that I'm angry with you so I will punish my son and everything will be OK between us is goofy. Try it next time you have a fight with your wife.

 

Here are some scriptures about the fact that the wicked will perish.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

I tell you the truth again xdisciplex, your problem results from choosing to believe a lie. The penalty for sin is death, non existence, not eternal torment. The natural death that we all die, is not real death at all, but more like a sleep. This is why the bible refers to it as such so very many times. The second death though, is final, and absolute.

Prayerfully study the scriptures as a whole, from beginning to end, in relation to the topic of death, and you will come to a knowledge of truth. The truth will set you free. Free from deception, and therefore confusion.

Jesus Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life." He died for us. He didn't burn in hell forever for us, because this is not the penalty for sin.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

The key to understanding the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice is determined by some particular standard.

What I mean is, xdisciplex, that it is important to determine the standard for his sacrifice. We need to determine who makes the standard and what is it based on.

Trying to use our own human logic as a standard for what is right or wrong sets us up for failure as we are tainted with sin, therefore our perspective will be skued by it.

The standard for the sufficiency of Christs sacrifice is not our own reasoning but it is based on the character and will of God.

What makes Christs sacrifice sufficient is not wrapped up in finite v. infinite, but in the blood.

Sin against a Holy and Righteous God requires it, it satisfies the need for justice as God is just, and we have a choice not to suffer the eternal seperation from God.

 

You are still missing the point xdisciplex. Christ's body was our body, our corruption. This is what had to die according to the law. We were all in Christ on the cross. If now, by faith, we enter into Christ's experience, that is dying with Him on the cross, then He may live within us. This is salvation. He took our body, our corruption, and nailed it to the cross, that we might become His body, unto eternal life. For the church is the body of Christ, who is the head of all the faithful.


Gal 4:4-7 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


1 Cor 15:42-57 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.


Heb 10:4-10 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


Eph 2:15-22 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Eph 5:29-32 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Very true - that is why the "appeasement" model of propitiation fails but the Hebrew concept of "Atonement" and "substitutionary sacrifice" where "God is IN Christ reconciling the World to Himself" works so perfectly.

In Christ,

Bob