Jesus Christ is NOT God's criterion for election?!

Part 1

" And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 2:1-5 ).

I have no trouble presenting 1 Corinthians 2 along with electing grace, Benjamin.

1) Here Paul is telling the Corinthians that he came to them, not with "excellency of speech" ( being a talented orator with big words and human persuasiveness ), but that he is declaring to them the testimony of God.
2) He was determined not to know anything while he was among them, except Christ and Him crucified for them.

3) He then explains that when he was among them, physically, he was "in weakness" ( very humble towards them ) and in fear ( respect ) and even trembling, lest he should offend them.
4) Then he goes on to tell them that his manner of speech and preaching were not with enticing words of man's wisdom....stop.

What is man's wisdom?
That man can do something to gain God's favor.
Whether it is his own strength, his own "smarts", his own willingness, his own self-determination to do that which God requires...it's all the same.
Man's wisdom, which is contrary to God's wisdom.

5) Why was he telling them all this?
So that their faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.



So, to the natural man ( 1 Corinthians 2:14 ), what is the natural way to gain favor with God?
By standing there and hoping on His mercy because we know we are guilty and have offended Him, or by trying to get His attention with our efforts to please Him so He won't cast us into Hell?
I say the latter, and it's called "vain religion" in God's word.
The Pharisees were guilty of it, and many have been guilty of it down through the ages.

Basically put, we as men naturally want to do something for God, Benjamin.
That is what election completely rules out, and that is what seems to offend you, from my perspective.

That we have nothing to say or do, leaves us completely stripped of what we naturally think we should do to gain eternal life.
Do you find being completely at the mercy of God angering, or do you take comfort that your salvation was planned long before you were born?

I take comfort in the latter, because I know for a fact that nothing I could ever do would ever put me in the good graces of God.
Why?


Because my every work and my every thought is nothing but filthy rags, in His sight, outside of His mercy and grace towards me through His Son.

 

I agree

My being saved was not out side of my will. I asked the Lord to save me. No where in scripture does God ever just up and save men with out faith this is as false as it gets and no one can prove it true. Please don't site Paul's conversion because Paul already believed in God

Did you know that when you Graft a tree to another. the graft still produces the same fruit as if there were no change in root?. Grafting can make one tree produces several different types of fruit. Gentiles are still Gentiles they will never be a Jew. Before the foundation of the world only Jews were elect.

My Bible doesn't give the God of the universe such a low title as Sovereign. He is all powerful He is the mighty God He is above everything thing else. He is Jehovah.. God is above sovereign. You can show scriptures ' till the cows come home and still not prove Calvinism. I have shown Calvinist this many times as well
MB

 

Part 2

" Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 but we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual." ( 1 Corinthians 2:6-13 ).

Paul is declaring that he is speaking wisdom to those that are perfect.
What is it to be "perfect"?
Perfect before God, which can only happen because God has justfied someone by His Son's blood.
No one is righteous outside of Christ's sacrifice for them...period.

This passage also tells me that no man has seen or heard the things that God has prepared for them that love Him...
Which things Paul spoke.
The wisdom of God in a mystery, ordained of God before the world, unto our glory.

What things did Paul speak in his epistles?

Election, Predestination,"Calling", Justification and Glorification ( Romans 8:29-30 ).
Vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath ( Romans 9:21-24 ).
Salvation being totally of grace ( Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
Faith as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ).

Being chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4 ).
Being predestinated to the adoption of God's children ( Ephesians 1:5 ).
Being chosen to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
Being given the privilege of both believing on Christ and suffering for His sake ( Philippians 1:29 ).
Having all our trespasses forgiven ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), at the cross.

All according to the good pleasure of His will.

In other words, everything that Paul had to say in his epistles was intended for God's children.
But in order to know the things that were freely given to us by God, He gave us His Spirit to understand the things that Paul spoke...
Not in the words that man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Ghost teaches.

The "natural man" does not welcome, or receive the things of God, for they are spiritually discerned...
not naturally, through the corrupt flesh and the mind that is at enmity ( odds ) with God.
To those people, they are a mystery.


There it is, Benjamin...

1 Corinthians 2, with relation to what most call, "Calvinism".
One of the many truths that the Lord had Paul teach, is that God determined, by Himself, who to save...
not leaving that determination up to men to decide.


May God bless you, sir.

 

Dave, not surprisingly, you’ve seemed to miss the entire point I made toward Calvinist who like to proof-text the doctrines of pre-determined election with 1Cor 2. In short, your insistence on pre-determination of election precisely mimics the stumbling block of the Jews idea of election that also didn’t recognize the context of this chapter about the mystery of Progressive Revelation of Christ which reveals salvation is through His judgment of faith and NEVER had anything to do with a pre-determined selection as my prior post points out. But again, I must say you missing this is not a surprise because it speaks of the very problem you have in not understanding that the means of salvation comes in faith in Christ and not by being lucky enough to be pre-determination or by pedigree:

(1Co 2:6) Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

(1Co 2:7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

(1Co 2:8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

(1Co 2:9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

(1Co 2:10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

(1Co 2:11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

(1Co 2:12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

(1Co 2:13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

(1Co 2:14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

(1Co 2:15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

(1Co 2:16) For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


Dave, you might want to re-read my post while paying closer attention to the premises and logical conclusions because this special understanding of yours you like to talk about all the time seems to have missed the boat bigtime on this one. Maybe it will sink in eventually.


May God bless you in your learning.

 

Why?

Because it is God's grace that works in you to will and to do of His pleasure. Philippians 2:13

Fig branches can't be grafted into an olive tree. They were olives. Besides who are the children of Abraham in reality?

Galatians 3:7
​

Why were the natural branches cut off? They had no faith. They were not elect. Why were the wild ones grafted in? They stand by faith. They are elect.

Israel is the household of faith.

Do you even have the book of Galatians in your Bible? Read what it says about Sarah and Hagar and Old and New Jerusalem.

You just spout off this nonsense that 'only the [natural] Jews were elect' which, if you aren't making it up entirely out of your own imagination, is the fruit of false teaching that you've received and not checked against the Scriptures. There's a host of non-Calvinists, all of whom wrest the doctrine, but none of whom would postulate that election is only of the Jews.

...to you, you mean. And I agree. One must have ears to hear, and that's the work of the Spirit. But I can, and did, show that your doctrine of election is not biblical.

 

Respectfully, no I didn't.
I read you loud and clear.

I'm not the one making insistence, God's word does.
I get my understanding from the words on the page, Benjamin.

Since faith is a gift from God, then His judgment of faith is based on those to whom He gives the gift.
His children have true faith, because it was given to them to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).

So, when He judges something in a person, He is judging His own righteous work.

There is no pedigree.
John 1:13 is very clear about that, as it is not of blood, nor of the flesh ( our will ) nor is it of the will of other men.

People believe because they are born of God, not by their own efforts.

My special understanding?

Any child of God can understand the Bible, Benjamin.
I'm nothing special, sir, especially in my own eyes.

Therefore, anyone who truly believes does so because it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God ( Matthew 13:11 ).
That is why we are all grateful for that unspeakable and special gift...
Because it is a gift, not a reward.

Knowing the Lord is worth more than this life, and worth more than all the money in the world.

 

We agree on this. What we seem to disagree on is God's elect includes the believing gentiles, Ephesians 1:4.

 

Because of this verse;
Mat_7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
I was also convinced of the gospel by the Holy Spirit. I was convicted of my sins and I believed in Christ. Some would say that I was saved the moment I believed. Yet I asked anyway. I know it isn't what you believe but it is what I believe.

After Salvation this is true. God worked on me before I was saved He drew me to him. He convicted me of my sins. He convinced me of the gospel and I asked Him to save me. I received Him Just like in the verse above. Many don't ask they assume they are saved. I wanted to make sure. Not to mention no one assumes the King is going to give you anything. Why assume God will give you anything. Asking to be saved leaves it up to God if He wishes to do this or not. It's good manners to ask and of course I thank Him every day He saved me

As a boy I learned about grafting. We had a green house. My father grew all sorts of fruits and vegetables. We not only grafted trees we also grafted several vines and flowers. I don't know about figs because where I lived fig's do not grow there The climate has to be warm for many fruits.

True they did not believe.although they were natural branches. I think you over estimate election. Election is not about being a people of God Still some are lost not all are saved. Besides it does not concern Gentiles at all. There are no Gentile in scripture that is called elect. Why do you aply election to your self? Can you prove you are elect. I doubt it. It's not like Salvation where you confess Christ as your Savior. To be elect you have to be the offspring of Jacob. Abraham is the father of us all but that does not make us elect. There is nothing in scripture to support a Gentile being elect.

The rest of this has been refuted many times by me and several other gentlemen. Your are the one spouting off as if you know all there is. Believe me the secrets of scripture are hidden from those who profess to be so wise.
MB

 

K

 

I see we are on page 4, and I did not read past the OP. Of course all "Calvinists" (those that believe in the TULIP) believe in Unconditional Election, rather than as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, election through faith in the truth.

 

I know you're thinking because Paul was in Ephesus you think He only spoke to the Ephesians. You have to consider Paul's custom of preaching in the S. Synagogues. There would not have been that many Gentiles in the Synagogue It would have been mostly Jews.
Until I see scripture that clearly states Gentiles are elect I will not believe it.
MB

 

You can laugh at scripture if you want that your business.. Although it is a Pharisaical gesture.
MB

 

They were given, MB.

Post # 53, here:
Ephesians 2

Here are some more:
Acts of the Apostles 19:17-20.
Also, here:

" Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 that at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:" ( Ephesians 2:11-12 ).

The Ephesians believers were being addressed as Gentiles, MB.

 

Well there you go Ephesians 1 is talking about the Jews which is why the word chosen is used in Thessalonians.
MB

 

Yes they were and called strangers not elect. You cannot see the word elect in this passage you have to imagine it.
MB

 

So until I see the word of God where not all of God,'s people are His elect, you are in error on this matter. 2 Corinthians 6:16-18

 

Interesting. I often refer to this verse when speaking to seekers because it also played a major role in convincing me of the truths in God's Words and His promises to all people. When I present that verse I tell people, "that is a promise you can put in the bank" and then I tell them the next verse ...but if truth be known according to the Calvinists they should tell people that it only applies if they've been pre-selected, and wish them good luck.

I only see inclusion in this promise below that is genuinely for all that they may come to know Christ:

(Mat 7:8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

If being intellectually honest and transparent the Calvinist/Determinist must discount "every one" to mean the specially pre-selected lucky few (their definition of elect) while putting darkness for light in the Gospel.

Yup, it seems pretty clear that my/our doctrines of grace are broader and more inclusive than the Determinist's.

 

Sorry MB but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is not referring to those of Jewish ancestor. but those who were called through the gospel (verse 14). Thus brethren refers to siblings in Christ. Ditto for Ephesians 1, Paul is writing to those set apart in Christ (saints).

 

Ben, you seem to think that the general call cannot honestly be shared by Calvinists. That is inaccurate. Since no human knows to whom God will give salvation, it can be told of every human that they must believe and repent to be saved.
The Calvinist knows that God will cause the appointed hearer to believe. Those not appointed to belief will, by their very rebellious nature, not believe. It would be foolishly presumptuous for the servant of God to tell someone that they will never have the capacity to believe. The servant of God does not know the time or place when the rebel may receive her/his gift from God. To presume knowledge would be foolish. But, that seems to be your foolish strawman when you speak of Christians who believe in the Supremacy and Sovereign authority of God in the salvation of human beings.
I would point out that you unintentionally feed human pride when you tell someone they can choose God's salvation. Such a statement tells the person that their wise and pragmatic choice will save them from their troubles. God, in that teaching, loses his role of Sovereign King and is given the role of all powerful genie who responds to human call.

 

No, to begin with I am not under the delusion that there is a “general call” and an actual “effective call” nor do I need to attempt to divide the call into duel definitions to justify a systematic “doctrine of grace” that is not transparent when presenting the Good News that they in fact believe it is Bad News for most according to their views of predetermination.

“If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

I fully understand the Calvinist’s positions of Total Inability to respond to what they constantly debate is a less than genuine call for most. I said nothing of you/them telling a person, “ that they will never have the capacity to believe.”, I said that you/they are not transparent in telling, “that they may/most likely never be able to have the capacity to believe.”

So what, this does not justify your/their half-truths…

I did not ever say a servant knows any such thing; you merely try to create a strawman fallacy using this question-begging fallacy as your conclusion.

I spoke of Calvinists/Determinists not being transparent and being non-conclusive in their “Doctrines of Pre-selected Grace” and I’m not sure what your question-begging that you have the correct of view God’s sovereignty to be Deterministic Sovereignty over robots rather than Divine Providential Sovereignty over volition humans has to do with this.

Odd, you would speak of “strawmen" and then come with this doozer. I tell people who are seeking faith in the truth of God’s Words about His promise:

(Mat 7:7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Wrong! Such a statement tells the person they have genuine hope in a loving God who has promised to reveal the truth to them if from their heart they will ask, seek and knock at His door. That here is Good News …and I have no Bad News to hide when I tell it!

God, in that teaching, may not live up to your Systematic view of Determinism Sovereignty but He is maintained in my view as being in full control of the creatures He divinely designed to have sense, reason and intellect (human volition) to which He will in truth judge according to their responses to the GENUINE calls which He Providentially manages through Jesus Christ as a Mediator between Him and them for that reason.

Shame on you for calling God a “genie” for judging man's response in truth and/or for hearing their cries for knowledge of His loving truths!

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.


(Psa 145:17) The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

(Psa 145:18) The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

(Psa 145:19) He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.



(Rom 10:9) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Note: You is used 4 times in this verse. You'll be surprised by how much "you" there is in a book that supposedly says that we can do nothing.