The SDA Church!

I would hope that BobRyan knows better than to believe that hogwash...

 

Questions on Doctrine 1957, pp. 14, 539, 543.

Revelation 20:7-10
"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,8and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.9And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NASB

 

I highly value the BB policies, practices, monitor conduct, discussion etc. I have no respect at all for the unchristian methods and practices of CARM.

On the BB we are free to discuss the RCC, Calvinism, Arminianism and even SDAs - both pro and con. With the facts clearly set out and the idea that people are free to choose.

CARM practices deceit plain and simple. I used to post on the RCC thread of CARM and found it to be a lot of fun. I also posted on the SDA section and enjoyed that as well - until they started "making stuff up" about my sign-on. "Pretending" like their own witch-hunt methods actually had "truth" to them even after admitting that they were mistaking my screen name for some other guy that had long since vanished!!

When this was brought to the web master's attention - the response was fully as compromised as the initial behavior of the board managers -- so "at least they are consistent".

I would recommend BB over CARM any day - and twice on Sunday.

CARM is dedicated to doing christianity "harm".

The RCC already tried similar tactics when it held a monopoly on Europe in the dark ages. You would think the managers of CARM would have read a little history.

 

Christian evolutionists by comparison to CARM - are "saints" that have just a slight problem with facts.

And that should tell you something.

 

Try actually reading the 27 Fundamental Beliefs published on the web and in book form (actually 28 now-days). You may not agree with them - but you will know what to attack that way.

QoD is a great book!

But the published 27 FB are what gets "voted by the church" every 5 years - so it is a good reference document.

A group of 50 millerites (50 out of the 500000 Millerites in the U.S actuallly founded the SDA church - Ellen Harmon (later Ellen White) was only one of them)

That is not an SDA statement of belief - it is a mix of what you think and a little of what SDAs think on that same topic.

Pick one.

SDAs accept the 10 commandments. They are not the only ones.

SDAs agree with D. Moody's views on the 10 commandments in General and on the 7th day Sabbath - 4th commandment specifically - aside from his attempts to "edit it to apply to Sunday".

This is still one of the foundational 27 FB for SDAs. No change! At all!

SDA's claim that Daniel 7 points to a pre-advent judgment where "Judgment is passed in favor of the saints" as Daniel said.

They also claim that God is all-knowing and so is "not figuring anything out here". They claim that the judgment criteria is the same as that which Paul identifies in Romans 2.

Those who accept Romans 2 generally have not problem with that.

Something that "does not exist" can not be "alseep" -- obviously. The SDA teaching is that the PERSON - the essence of the person is returned to God at death as Ecclesiastes says. SDA's view THE SAME idea of sleep for the "DEAD in Christ" as we see in 1Thess 4.

The wicked are tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the Lamb AND of all His Holy ones - (Rev 14:10) you will be there for every living second of your loved one's torment according to Rev 14:10.

Jonathan Edwards strongly affirms that fact in Rev 14:10.

SDA believe in the method of "Sola Scriptura" for ALL doctrinal standards. NO doctrine of the SDA chruch uses statements of Ellen White as "proof" of the foundational teaching!

Heb 8.

SDAs do accept Hebrews 8 -- that is true.

The only "sense" in which our sins go to Satan is the special case of Satan's OWN SIN - his OWN guilt in tempting us to sin. Satan is already guilty of tempting all mankind to sin - and all that sin (his part in tempting them) is placed on him by default. But SDAs teach that Lev 16 indicates a special case where NOT ONLY is Satan guilty for tempting a fallen world (a world that JOINED him in rebellion) his is ALSO guilty of those who alinged themselves with the LAMB -- tempting those NOT in league with him! That is a measure of guilt that is only publically demonstrated after the Daniel 7 judgment "is passed in favor of the saints".

Jesus is "God the Son" the second person of the Trinity. His is YHWH that was SEEN in the OT including the one that Abraham SEES in Genesis 15-23. YHWH is SEEN in Genesis and described as "a man" as he walks toward Abram - but that does not mean he is ontologically "a man". Neither does the description as Michael mean that God the Son was ontologically an Angel instead of God.

But if you "don't read enough" you might come away with the statement you made.

Pre-millennial, post-trib rapture with the saints raised in the FIRST resurrection (Rev 20:4-5) the SAME resurrection described in 1Thess 4 when speaking of the "DEAD in Christ" being raised.

Enjoy!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed that is fair to say -

As well as -

-Sola Scriptura (ALL 66 books not just 27)
-God's Ten Commandments still exist unchanged and define sin
-Heb 8 is real - and true.
-The Judgment of Daniel 7 and Romans 2, and 2Cor 5 are all one and the same.
- The Term "SLEEP" used by Paul in 1Thess 4 for the "DEAD in Christ" is correct.
- The first Resurrection in Rev 20:4-5 is the same one we see in 1Thess 4 mentioned by Paul.
- 1Cor 12 spiritual gifts are valid and 1Cor 14:1 is still true.

 

Interestingly, Ellen G White is not the founder of the SDA!

Here is what Wikipedia has to say,

At about the same time that the followers of the movement were studying the sanctuary, the question of the biblical day of rest and worship was raised. The foremost proponent of Sabbath-keeping among early Adventists was retired sea captain Joseph Bates. Bates was introduced to the Sabbath doctrine by a tract written by a Millerite preacher named Thomas M. Preble who in turn had been influenced by a young Seventh Day Baptist lady by the name of Rachel Oakes Preston.

This message was gradually accepted and formed the topic of the first edition of the church publication, The Present Truth which appeared in July 1849. While initially it was believed that the "sabbath" started at 6 pm, by 1855 it was generally accepted that the "sabbath" begins at sunset.
For about 20 years, the Adventist movement consisted of a loosely knit group of people who adhered to this message. Among its greatest supporters were James White, Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates. After intense discussions a formally organized church called the Seventh-day Adventist Church was established in Battle Creek, Michigan, in May 1863, with a membership of 3,500. Through the evangelistic efforts of its ministers and laity and the guidance of Ellen G. White, the church quickly grew and established a presence beyond North America during the late 1800s. In 1903, the denominational headquarters were moved from Battle Creek to temporary quarters in Washington D.C. and soon thereafter established in nearby Takoma Park, Maryland). In 1989, the headquarters was moved again, this time to Silver Spring, Maryland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_Church

 

This doctrine is the most damming of the SDA. The above statement is mild compared to some I have read. YES...tis true and sad.. SDA teach Michael was/is God the Son. One day I plan on taking this up for debate. I don't have the time now. But this places SDA in the same arena as JW.

 

This doctrine is the most damming of the SDA. The above statement is mild compared to some I have read. YES...tis true and sad.. SDA teach Michael was/is God the Son. One day I plan on taking this up for debate. I don't have the time now. But this places SDA in the same arena as JW. </font>[/QUOTE]I should add. Not all SDA hold to this doctrine. There is at least one other group that still calls themself SDA, yet have left most of Whites teachings behind. I'm not sure if they have a name...maybe Bob can tell us.

 

Well here is our belief about Jesus being Michael the Archangel, if anyone wants to actually read it:

Written by Michael Scheifler, shared by permission
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/michael.htm


MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL ..... JESUS?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To begin, let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush-

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Now note the following-

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I am* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I am* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I am*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I am* that met Moses at the burning bush.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself. Now a little later in Genesis-

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look at the story of Abraham and Isaac-

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God speaks to Abraham, giving him instructions to follow. Look who speaks to Abraham next-

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now on to Jacob-

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Who went before them?-

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam-

Num 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

Then a transition from God to *angel of the LORD*-

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the *angel of the LORD* stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The *angel of the LORD* is used many times in verses 23,24,25,26,31,32,34,35 and the LORD in verses 28,31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably. In each case it is again referring to the LORD Jesus Christ.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now in the book of Judges-

Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

By now this should be easy. Just who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made the covenant with Israel that He would never break - *an angel of the LORD* or Jesus Christ, GOD Himself? Yes, the answer is both, one and the same.

Now look who visits Gideon later in Judges-

Judg 6:11 And there came an *angel of the LORD*, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

Note what this messenger (angel) says-

Judg 6:12 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

THE LORD IS WITH THEE ... it was indeed Jesus with Gideon, note-

Judg 6:20 And the *angel of God* said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Judg 6:21 Then the *angel of the LORD* put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the *angel of the LORD* departed out of his sight.
Judg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an *angel of the LORD*, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an *angel of the LORD* face to face.

Now look who (again) speaks-

Judg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Gideon had been speaking with the LORD Jesus Christ all along.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On to Judges 13-

Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

*Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

In the instances I have cited, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a further text to consider-

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel-

God, --- before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
God --- which fed me all my life long unto this day
The *Angel --- which redeemed me* from all evil
(*the Angel* that) --- bless the lads; and let my name be named on them
(*the Angel* that) --- let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth

This is referring back to Gen 28:13-15 and the Lord's promise to Jacob (Israel)-

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

So in Gen 48:16 Israel is speaking of God as a redeeming angel. Again, not angel the sense of a created being, but rather in the generic sense of the word, meaning messenger. What created angel could redeem anyone? None. Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and that is exactly who Jacob (Israel) had been speaking with and about. Jesus was, and is, that redeeming angel (messenger) sent from God the Father. A similar passage referring to Jesus as a redeeming angel is in Isaiah:

Isa 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In Daniel, when the three Hebrew boys were cast into the fiery furnace for not bowing down to the golden statue, not three but four figures were seen in the furnace:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Now most Christians would agree that this was indeed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who walked with them in the furnace, in a pre-incarnation appearance. Yet, verse 28, interestingly enough, describes the fourth figure as an angel:

Dan 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his *angel*, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The Angel of the Covenant

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

The messenger of the covenant spoken of here in Malachi is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ, and His first and second coming. The word translated as messenger in Mal 3:1 is the same word [H4397, mal'ak] used in the previous passages of the old testament where we saw the phrase angel of the Lord. So this would also be a proper translation:

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In fact, this is how the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible translates this verse:

CHAPTER 3.

Christ shall come to his temple, and purify the priesthood. They that continue in their evil ways shall be punished: but true penitents shall receive a blessing.

Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

* Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.

So now, what of Michael the archangel? Is it so difficult to believe that he may actually be Jesus Christ? Let's look at each instance he is mentioned in the Bible and see-

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #1

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the *archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves!

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #3

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to Satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #4

Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Gabriel says that only he and Michael know certain truths which Gabriel will reveal to Daniel. Who could this Michael be but Jesus, God Himself, giving Gabriel the truths to reveal to Daniel?

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #5

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.

Some might propose that, in these three preceding texts from Daniel, the description of Michael as a mere prince is inappropriate for Jesus, so it must be speaking of a created angel. Note the following verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ...

Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

And what does the name Michael mean? It means *who (is) like God?* A very good question indeed - who is like Jesus?

As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.

 

I rest my case.

As I stated...this is what SDA believe. The post above proves this.


Later this week, if given the time, I will address this post and show where this doctrine is wrong.

 

Going to CARM(Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)to use them as a source to learn what Seventh Day Adventists teach...


That is a bad idea, they are full of distortions regarding the SDA Church.

 

If you take a close look, you will notice that the Jesus and Michael teaching is not involved in the SDA 28 points of doctrine.

Maybe some SDA's have taught this, yet it seems a little unfair for something that is not in the teachings of the current SDA church to be brought against them and suggested that their teaching is in error.

It wasnt until the 1920's that the SDA officially adopted the Trinity, yet it was accepted prior to then, the SDA openly admit that their doctrines have had changes over the years, based on where God lead them.

 

That is a good point. This is "not a doctrine" of the SDA church. SDA's also believe that Adam and Eve (and all those living before the flood) lived longer than normal people and were taller than normal people. This too "is not a doctrine" in the 27 FB.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Your argument - as usual - is less than comprehensive, feelings-based, and not very compelling.

Paying "some attention" to detail would have served you better.

And as Ben as already noted - this is not one of the 27 FB.

AS for "some named group" not accepting Ellen White - I have no idea what their name is -- "Californians?"

In Christ,

Bob