Cloud of Witnesses and Praying to Dead People

What this non-infallible and not all encomapssing response is pointing at is NOT that Christianity/Catholicism has pagan elements per se, but that other pagan religions have some facets of the truth even in them! Again, this is what allowed Paul to call the Pagan Greeks Pious, and then take what they had and use it to explain omre fully the One True God, to whom all worship and adoration alone is due.

When I pray to saints, I do not worship them. The Catholic Church does not worship them. The Orthodox Church does not worship them. The only person confused on this matter is you, the non-catholic, who has no real bearing on the matter but only copies and pastes what he can scrounge up.

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Augustine, Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

 

I can agree with that, Bob. What we have now is but a fore-taste. I'm glad someone else could see through tradition based on an ambiguous if not dubious interpretation of that verse, and see it as a testimony of God's past grace and guarantee of His future fulfilment toward us. Bless you, brother.

SpyHunter

 

Except Revelation 5 which shows them presenting our prayers to God. How did they get them?

 

This roll was written within and without. John says: "I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon." The vision as presented to John made its impression upon his mind. The destiny of every nation was contained in that book. John was distressed at the utter inability of any human being or angelic intelligence to read the words, or even to look thereon. His soul was wrought up to such a point of agony and suspense that one of the strong angels had compassion on him, and laying his hand on him assuringly said, "Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
John continues: "I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne."
"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: and they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, Holy and true, doest Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them [They were pronounced pure and holy]; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" [Rev. 6:9-11].

Here were scenes presented to John that were not in reality but that which would be in a period of time in the future.


The holy places of the sanctuary in Heaven are represented by the two apartments in the sanctuary on earth. As in vision the apostle John was granted a view of the temple of God in Heaven, he beheld there "seven lamps of fire burning before the throne."[2 REV. 4:5.] He saw an angel "having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne."[3 REV. 8:3.] Here the prophet was permitted to behold the first apartment of the sanctuary in Heaven; and he saw there the "seven lamps of fire" and the "golden altar" represented by the golden candlestick and the altar of incense in the sanctuary on earth. Again, "the temple of God was opened,"[1 REV 11:19.] and he looked within the inner veil, upon the holy of holies. Here he beheld "the ark of His testament," represented by the sacred chest constructed by Moses to contain the law of God.

 

1Cor:4:9: For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.


thats what he cloud of witnesses are

 

Is it biblical to ask the saints in heaven to pray for us? Catholics say yes, since we are all part of the communion of saints. Most Protestants say no, even though many of them recite the Apostles' Creed.(The classic Christian words of the well-known Apostle's Creed states: I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.) Thus, they profess to believe in the "communion of saints," but usually they cannot explain what this means. What does it mean to believe in the communion of saints?

As the word suggests, the communion of saints refers to the bond of unity among all believers, both living and dead, who are committed followers of Christ. In Christ, we are made part of God's family (1 Tim 3:15), children of God (1 John 3:1), joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17), and partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4). This family communion of saints is known to Catholics as the Mystical Body of Christ [the teaching that the Church is the Body of Christ is found throughout the NT: 1 Cor 10:16; Gal 3:28; Eph 1:22-23, 4:4, 4:15-16, 5:21-32; Col 1:18, 3:15.] We are joined in a supernatural union as members of Christ's own body, and thus as members of one another. Each of us participates in the divine life of Christ Himself.

The Vine and the Branches (John 15:1-5). Because we as branches are connected to Christ the vine, we are also connected to each other. It is the life and grace of Jesus that gives us life and unites us in our common pilgrimage to heaven. St. Paul emphasizes this unity in Christ's body in 1 Cor 12:12-27 (especially v. 25-27) and in Rom 12:4-16.

(1)All Christians are members of Christ's body and one another. (Rom 12:5 and many others.)

(2) Jesus has only one body (Eph 4:4; Col 3:15)

(3) Death cannot separate Christians from Christ or from one another (Rom 8:35-39).

(4) Christians are bound in mutual love. (Rom 12:10; 1 Thess 5:11; Gal 6:2)

We are members of Christ's one body, united in His divine life even beyond the grave, and concerned with each other's salvation and growth in God's family. In that union, we call for help support from our older brothers and sisters who have already won their crown of glory.

Just as in our human families we naturally turn to our siblings for aid and example, how much more should we turn to our supernatural family for help and inspiration.

In my next few post, I will give the history of the Doctrine of Communion of Saints. (Church Fathers) and I will address the allegations that praying to the saints is necromancy.

 

Marcia-- you mean rhetoric and repeating of oneself aren't types of scriptural support?

 

This is the history of the Doctrine of the Communion of Saints.
In the Catacombs underneath Rome (which date back to the earliest Christian period), inscriptions are frequently found on tombs which appeal to dead Christians, such as: "Ask for us in thy prayers, for we know thou art with Christ." Even the eminent Protestant church historian Philip Schaff, who is openly hostile to such practices, admits this. (1)
The oldest testimony in the Fathers for the veneration of saints occurs around 156 in The Martyrdom of Polycarp (17:3):
[Christ] we worship as the Son of God; but the Martyrs we love as disciples and imitators of the Lord; and rightly so, because of their unsurpassable devotion to their own King and Teacher.
In the same work (18:2), it is recounted how the Christians of Smyrna collected the bones of St. Polycarp, "more precious than the richest jewels and more tried than gold." (2)
St. Jerome later defended the veneration of relics against the charge of idolatry, (3) and St. Augustine, (4) Theodoret of Cyr, (5) Pope St. Gregory the Great, (6) and St. John Damascene (7) also sanctioned this practice.
Around 204, St. Hippolytus, commenting on Daniel 11:30, addresses Daniel's three companions with the invocation, "Think of me, I beseech you, so that I may achieve with you the same fate of martyrdom." (8) This is the first attestation of invocation of the saints among the Fathers. Origen (d.c.254), believed that "the angels and the souls of the pious who sleep pray." (9)
By the fourth century, the testimony is practically universal. St. Cyril of Jerusalem wrote concerning "the patriarchs, prophets, Apostles, and martyrs" that "through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition." (10) St. Hilary of Poitiers refers to "the guardianship of the saints," and "the protection of the angels." (11) St. John Chrysostom, in a sermon on two saints, Bernice and Prosdoce, said that, in their martyrdom, "they now bear the stigmata of Christ, and when they show these, they can persuade the King to anything." (12) St. Basil the Great calls the forty soldiers who suffered martyrdom under Licinius in Sebaste around 320, "helpers of our prayers and most mighty intercessors with God." (13)
St. Ephraem addresses the saints in general thusly:
Remember me, ye heirs of God, ye brethren of Christ, pray to the Saviour for me, that I through Christ may be delivered . . . (14)
St. Gregory of Nyssa invokes this same Ephraim:
Thou who standest at the holy altar, . . . remember us all, and implore for us the forgiveness of sins and the enjoyment of the eternal kingdom. (15)
St. Gregory Nazianzen addresses St. Cyprian as present and implores his favor. (16) St. Ambrose believed that:
The angels, who are appointed to guard us, must be invoked for us; the martyrs, to whose intercession we have claim by the pledge of their bodies, must be invoked. They who have washed away their sins by their own blood, may pray for our sins . . . We need not blush to use them as intercessors. (17)
In the fifth century (406), St. Jerome asked:
If Apostles and martyrs, whilst still in the flesh, and still needing to care for themselves, can pray for others, how much more will they pray for others after they have won their crowns, their victories, their triumphs? Moses, one man, obtains God's pardon for six hundred thousand armed men, and Stephen prays for his persecutors. When they are with Christ will they be less powerful? . . . Shall [St. Paul] close his lips after death, and not mutter a syllable for those who throughout the world have believed in his gospel? (18)
St. Augustine, writing around 400, asserts:
We, the Christian community, assemble to celebrate the memory of the martyrs with ritual solemnity because we want to be inspired to follow their example, share in their merits, and be helped by their prayers. Yet we erect no altars to any of the martyrs . . . but to God himself, the God of those martyrs . . . What is offered is offered always to God, who crowned the martyrs . . .
So we venerate the martyrs with the same veneration of love and fellowship that we give to the holy men of God still with us . . . But the veneration strictly called worship, or latria that is, the special homage belonging only to the divinity, is something we give and teach others to give to God alone. The offering of a sacrifice belongs to worship in this sense (that is why those who sacrifice to idols are called idol-worshippers), and we neither make nor tell others to make any such offering to any martyr, any holy soul, or any angel . . .
The saints themselves forbid anyone to offer them the worship they know is reserved for God, as is clear from the case of Paul and Barnabas (see Acts 14:8-18). (19)
St. Augustine inferred from the concern of the rich man in Sheol for his brothers (Luke 16:27), that those in heaven must have much more interest in human affairs, (20) and calls the saints our "intercessors." (21) In a sermon he begs St. Stephen and St. Paul for their petitions, (22) and attributes miracles, even the raising of the dead, to Stephen's prayers. (23) Pope St. Leo the Great stressed in his sermons the powerful intercession of the Apostles Peter and Paul, and also the Roman martyr Laurentius. (24) Pope St. Gregory the Great, at the end of the next century, upheld these doctrines to an even greater extent. (25)
Except for a sizable minority faction within Anglicanism (and perhaps tiny factions here and there), the communion of the saints, as understood in the Catholic Tradition, has been rejected outright by Protestantism, on grounds that it is either idolatrous, unbiblical, unnecessary, or quasi-occultic. But even in recent times, an "icon" of sorts among evangelical Protestants, C.S. Lewis, maintained that the invocation of saints had a legitimate theological rationale behind it (26)
In doctrine and practice, Eastern Orthodoxy entirely concurs with the Catholic Church with regard to the communion of saints. (27)
FOOTNOTES
1. Schaff, Philip, History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1976 (orig. 5th ed., 1889), vol. 2, chapter 7, section 86, 302-3. In his treatment of patristic views on the saints, Schaff writes:
In the numerous memorial discourses of the fathers, the martyrs are loaded with eulogies, addressed as present, and besought for their protection. The universal tone of those productions is offensive to the Protestant taste, and can hardly be reconciled with evangelical ideas of the exclusive and all-sufficient mediation of Christ and of justification by pure grace without the merit of works. But . . . the best church fathers, too, never separated the merits of the saints from the merits of Christ, but considered the former as flowing out of the latter.
(vol. 3, chapter 7, section 84, 438.
This is a very valuable testimony from a decidedly hostile witness. Concerning the Fathers' views on relics, Schaff concludes forlornly:
The most and the best of the church teachers of our period, Hilary, the two Gregories, Basil, Chrysostom, Isidore of Pelusium, Theodoret, Ambrose, Jerome, Augustine, and Leo, . . . gave the weight of their countenance to the worship [i.e., veneration] of relics, which thus became an essential constituent of the Greek and Roman Catholic religion. They went quite as far as the Council of Trent.
(vol. 3, chapter 7, section 87, 456
2. From Jurgens, William A., ed. and tr., The Faith of the Early Fathers (FEF), 3 volumes, Collegeville, MN: Liturgical Press, 1970, vol. 1, 31 (17:3), and Schaff, ibid., vol. 3, ch. 7, sec. 87, 453 (18:2).
3. Epistle 109, 1.
4. City of God (c.426), 1:13.
5. The Cure of Pagan Maladies (b.449), 8.
6. Letter to Empress Constantina Augusta (June, 594), 4:30.
7. The Source of Knowledge (c.743), 4:15.
8. In Ott, Ludwig, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, tr. Patrick Lynch, Rockford, IL: TAN Books and Publishers, 1974 (orig. 1952 in German), 319.
9. Ott, ibid.
10. Catechetical Lectures, 23:9-10. In the immediate context he also condones prayer for those in purgatory, and the Sacrifice of the Mass. From Jurgens, FEF, vol. 1, 363.
11. Commentaries on the Psalms, 124. From Conway, Bertrand L., The Question Box, NY: Paulist Press, 1929, 370.
12. Opp. tom., 2, 770. See also Orat., 8, Adv. Jus., 6. Citation from Schaff, ibid., vol. 3, ch. 7, sec. 84, 439.
13. M. Hom. 19 in Forty Martyrs. From Schaff, ibid., vol. 3, ch. 7, sec. 84, 438.
14. In Schaff, ibid., vol. 3, ch. 7, sec. 84, 438.
15. The Life of St. Ephraem, tom. 3. From Schaff, ibid., 439.
16. In Schaff, ibid., 439.
17. De viduis, c.9. Schaff, ibid., 440. Schaff comments on the same page that in this passage, "Ambrose goes farther than the Council of Trent, which does not command the invocation of saints, but only commends it, and represents it not as duty, but only as privilege."
18. Against Vigilantius, 6. From Conway, ibid., 369.
19. Against Faustus, 20-21. From Schreck, Alan, Catholic and Christian, Ann Arbor, MI: Servant Books, 1984, 157-158.
20. Epistle 259. Schaff, ibid., 441.
21. Sermon 285. Schaff, ibid.
22. Sermon 317. Schaff, ibid.
23. Sermon 324. Schaff, ibid.
24. Sermon 85. Schaff, ibid., 442.
25. In Schaff, ibid., 442.
26. Lewis, C.S., Letters to Malcolm: Chiefly On Prayer, NY: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1964, 15-16. This is one of Lewis' last works. He also makes an overt reference to the communion of saints in his famous Screwtape Letters, NY: Macmillan, 1961, 12. Other notable Protestants who stressed a sense of the "aliveness" of the saints in heaven and their inclusion in the Body of Christ (excluding their invocation) include John Wesley, the founder of Methodism (Letter to a Roman Catholic, Dublin: 1749), and A.W. Tozer ("The Communion of Saints," in A Treasury of A.W. Tozer, Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1980, 168-70). The Lutheran creedal Augsburg Confession (1530), which was sanctioned by Luther himself, in its Article 21, recommends that "saints should be kept in remembrance so that our faith may be strengthened . . . Moreover, their good works are to be an example for us" (From Leith, John H., ed., Creeds of the Churches, Garden City, NY: Doubleday Anchor, 1963, 77). Luther, although eschewing invocation of saints, certainly venerated the Blessed Virgin Mary, since he held to virtually all the Catholic Marian dogmas, including the Immaculate Conception.
27. See Ware, Timothy (Archbishop Kallistos), The Orthodox Church, NY: Penguin, rev. ed., 1980, 258,261.

 

Please read my post about the "communion of Saints" before you read this post.

Necromancy means summoning forth spirits from the shadowy underworld (OT “Sheol”), in order to converse with them. By asking the saints in heaven to intercede for us, Catholics are not conjuring roaming spirits or communicating in any “spiritualistic” way. So prayer to the saints has nothing to do with necromancy.

Nor are the saints dead. The saints in heaven are alive and with God: “He is not God of the dead, but of the living” (Mark 12:26-27). In Mark 9:4, Jesus is seen conversing with Elijah and Moses. In fact, the saints in heaven are more alive than we are. They are free from all sin. They enjoy the fullness of God’s life-giving presence. Flooded with God’s love, they care more about us now than they did on earth.

Just as Paul asked fellow believers (saints) to pray for him (Rom 15:30; Col 4:3; 1 Thess 5:25; Eph 6:18-19; 2 Thess 3:1), now we can ask Paul and other saints in heaven to pray for us. We are not cut off from each other at death, rather we are brought closer through the communion we share in Christ.

We know that angels and saints place the prayers of the holy ones at God's feet (Tob 12:12; Rev 5:8; Rev 8:3-4), supporting those prayers with their intercessions. The martyrs underneath the heavenly altar cry out for earthly vindication (Rev 6:9-11), showing they are aware of, and concerned with, earthly affairs. The angels and saints in heaven will intercede for us before the throne of God if they are petitioned in prayer

 

Well said! Preach it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You have created a "distinction without a difference" sir.

You have twisted Isiah 8:19-20 so that INSTEAD of saying "do not consult the dead on behalf of the living" it is to say "do not consult the WRONG dead on behalf of the living" or "Do not consult the dead THAT WAY on behalf of the living".

Either way - it is eisegesis. Totally contrary to scripture.

The pagan notion of prayers to "ancestors" and "ancestor worship" is exactly what the RCC is practicing in its doctrine on consulting with the dead.

Christ never did this - nor did any Bible writer promote violation of the Isaiah 8 restriction.

You seem to argue that if the pagans "think the dead are in spirit form instead of ??? then they are consulting the dead in the WRONG WAY".

That is not what Isaiah 8 speaks about - it is not a command "to consult the dead - but not THAT way".

Paul calls the saints that have died "the DEAD IN Christ" 1Thess 4. They are in all cases referred to as "the DEAD".

To consult the DEAD is to violate the command given in Isaiah 8.

Period.

But the RCC authors DO admit that this pagan practice that was to be wiped out by the true followers of God in the OT - is exactly what is being promoted by the RCC.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In keeping with this model described by Catholic Digest – we find this prayer to St. Jude.

By contrast we have the following prayer to "the dead in Christ" --as Paul calls them – A prayer to St. Jude.

Notice that although in 1Cor 3 – Paul is directing the people of God to shun the cult-of-personality that would “recruit devotees to a given church leader” – yet this is exactly the focus of the prayer to the dead that we see in this example of the prayer to St. Jude.
Where in all of scripture are God’s people told to seek devotees who would perform devotions to them? Notice that Peter “attempts” to go down that road in Matt 17 – and the author tells us that he “did not know what he was saying”. As if Peter is insane or out of his mind due to the magnitude of the moment.

 

Paul calls them "The DEAD in Christ" in 1Thess 4.

EVEN 2Mac 12 calls them simply "the DEAD".

NEVER are the dead called "the ALIVE WITH God" anywhere but "man-made tradition".

Mark 12 and Matt 22 argue the case "FOR THE RESURRECTION" with the Sadducees (who say there is NO resurrection) by saying that the ONLY way for God to claim that HE IS the God of Abraham while speaking to Moses (long after Abraham has died and has become the DEAD in Christ) -- is for there to be a resurrection.

Your idea of turning that text on it's head completely negates Christ's own "proof" to the Sadducees for the resurrection!

BTW - That is exactly where "snippet texting" will get you every time. Take a look at the context to see how your spin on that text negates the Words of Christ as He proves the resurrection!

in Christ,

Bob

 

Admittedly this is not a Bible text - but you do see the RCC group trying to use this once in a while - yet EVEN THIS calls them the "DEAD" instead of the "EVEN MORE ALIVE IN CHRIST than WE ARE" as the RCC spin would have had it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

As Paul shows us in 1Thess 4 DURING his lifetime many saints died in persecution, old age etc. But not ONCE do we see HIM pray to THEM as he continues to call THEM the "DEAD in Christ" (see 1Thess 4).

How odd that Paul would not be doing what the RCC needs him to be doing?!!

Also notice that the equivocation attempted above between Paul asking the LIVING to pray for him (Ephesians 6) and "communion with the dead" is not even allowed by the RCC! The RCC forbids even Catholics from "praying to the living" -- it insists that such is not allowed!!

So in fact praying to the DEAD - is specifically oriented to that pagan system that God's people were supposed to "wipe out" as the Catholic Digest article above tells us.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey! We agreed on something!

In Christ,

Bob