Cloud of Witnesses and Praying to Dead People

Though Stan "could be" a Catholic "baptist" -- his argument does make sense even in a baptist context SINCE - his view of soliciting the prayers of others based on the Bible support for that practice (Eph 6) WOULD logically include the "others" who seek our best interest in heaven.

I have to admit that if I rejected Paul's argument that they are "THE DEAD in Christ" and thought of them as the "ALIVE in Christ" instead (as many Baptist also view it) - I would find Stan's argument to be pretty convincing!

in Christ,

Bob

 

Foundational to the pagan and RC system of necromancy is the total rejection of the idea of "the DEAD" being "asleep" or unaware!. Foundational to both is the man-made doctrine that those whom Paul calls "the DEAD in Christ" are in fact the "super abundantly ALIVE"!

The rejection of Paul's statement in 1Cor 15, and 1Cor 11, and 1 Thess 4 calling them "the DEAD in Christ" and "Those who have fallen asleep" -- is the substitution "instead" of the idea that the DEAD are in fact "the ALIVE in Christ" more alive "than we are".

ONCE we have that key foundational tradition replacing God's WORD it is then a very simple task to apply the doctrine of intercessory prayer (as in Eph 6 "PRAY FOR US as well that a door for the word may be opened") - to those "ALIVE In Christ" wherever they may be. In fact EVEN MORE so if they are in heaven with some kind of holy-intercom that can pick up our prayers TO them.

Of course the NT would ACCEPT Paul instead of rejecting him - and so they WOULD view the saints who died as "THE DEAD" in Christ instead of the "ALIVE in Christ" hence we find NO example of them "PRAYING to the DEAD in Christ"!!

So given a sola scriptura footing the error is avoided as pointed out above. BUT IF we can first insert man-made-tradition and THEN turn the argument over to Stan - his logic makes sense!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Anyone who argues that praying to a Saint is praying to a dead person doesn’t understand what Jesus has taught us; let me go to the Scriptures to see what Jesus has to say about those saints who have experienced a physical death:
MT 22:23 That same day the Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came to him with a question. "Teacher," they said, "Moses told us that if a man dies without having children, his brother must marry the widow and have children for him. Now there were seven brothers among us. The first one married and died, and since he had no children, he left his wife to his brother. The same thing happened to the second and third brother, right on down to the seventh. Finally, the woman died. Now then, at the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven, since all of them were married to her?"
MT 22:29 Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven. But about the resurrection of the dead--have you not read what God said to you, `I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob' ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." (St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for to him all are alive" or "for all live unto him")
Now if God is the God of the living and not the God of the dead when Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob then how can Catholics be praying to dead people? Even though Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob each experienced a physical death Jesus said they are indeed alive ("for to him all [in heaven] are alive") ! Let us further examine the words of Jesus on the matter:
JN 11:17 On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Bethany was less than two miles from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
JN 11:21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."
JN 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
JN 11:24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
Do Fundamentalist and Reformers believe this? Apparently not since they want to make the argument that Catholics pray to dead people! The very Bible that Fundamentalist/Evangelicals and Reformers claim they follow clearly teaches us there is no such thing as a dead saint! Some Fundamentalist might argue at this point that there is no example in the Bible either explicitly or implicitly that suggest we can pray to departed saints? Well, they can try and make that argument but once again let me examine the Scriptures to see if what Fundamentalists claim the Bible says or in this case doesn’t say is true.
MT 17:1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.
MT 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."
MT 17:5 While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Jesus himself spoke with both Moses and Elijah even though Moses was dead and buried for over a thousand years and Elijah was taken up into heaven nearly a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus is our very example of Christian living and here we have Jesus talking with a so-called “dead saint” while we read in the Scriptures:
1JN 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
Therefore, if Jesus spoke with departed Saints and the Bible commands us to walk as Jesus did there is no reason why we can’t ask the Saints to intercede for us, they have overcome the world and have been perfected and glorified. So how is it that Catholics are violating some divine precept supposedly forbidden by Scripture? How is it that Catholics are disobeying the teachings of Jesus and the Scriptures when Jesus himself set the example? Some might argue and say, “Hey Stan, Jesus was God and can speak to anyone he wants.” Never in the Scriptures do we see Jesus breaking any Commandment. Jesus was not free to violate any of the commandments because if he did his sacrifice at Calvary would have been nullified by sin.
Praying to and with departed Saints and petitioning for their prayers is not necromancy. When a Christian petitions in prayer for prayer and aid from a glorified heavenly saint he/she is communing with the saints which are still part of the body of Christ; this is no different then had they asked family and friends still here on earth to pray for them. The truly dead are forever separated from God but glorified Saints are not only not separated from God but they are not separated from the body of Christ either! That is why both Jesus and the children of God can receive comfort and aid from glorified and departed saints, because they are not dead but alive just like the Bible says!

 

The comment about 2 Macc. 12. This chapter is about prayers for the dead. "In doing this he acted in a very excellent and noble way, inasmuch as he had the resurrection of the dead in view; for if he were not expecting the dead to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death. But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin." (2 Macc. 12:43–45)

 

Notice -

#1. They are never called "the ALIVE" - rather they are just called "THE DEAD". Yet you say they should be said to be EVEN MORE ALIVE than we are!

#2. The "REWARD" is specific to "The RESURRECTION" not beofore it!

#3. the ENTIRE prayer event was "useless and foolish" apart from the Resurrection. Yet the RCC claims that BEFORE the resurrection is when the great benefit will occur!!

#4. Those who are being atoned for in this way are guilty of the mortal sin of idolatry AND are stated to be judged for that mortal sin. The RCC claims that NNE who dies with mortal sin can benefit from such prayers!

The RCC teaching dies in 2Mac 12!

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan
Please read my post on page 3, the third post from the bottom.

 

I seen this on a website (I was allowed permission)

The historic Christian practice of asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ—the saints—for their intercession has come under attack in the last few hundred years. Though the practice dates to the earliest days of Christianity and is shared by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, the other Eastern Christians, and even some Anglicans—meaning that all-told it is shared by more than three quarters of the Christians on earth—it still comes under heavy attack from many within the Protestant movement that started in the sixteenth century.

Can They Hear Us?

One charge made against it is that the saints in heaven cannot even hear our prayers, making it useless to ask for their intercession. However, this is not true. As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

Some might try to argue that in this passage the prayers being offered were not addressed to the saints in heaven, but directly to God. Yet this argument would only strengthen the fact that those in heaven can hear our prayers, for then the saints would be aware of our prayers even when they are not directed to them!

In any event, it is clear from Revelation 5:8 that the saints in heaven do actively intercede for us. We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

One Mediator

Another charge commonly levelled against asking the saints for their intercession is that this violates the sole mediatorship of Christ, which Paul discusses: "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

"No Contact with the dead"

Sometimes Fundamentalists object to asking our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us by declaring that God has forbidden contact with the dead in passages such as Deuteronomy 18:10–11. In fact, he has not, because he at times has given it—for example, when he had Moses and Elijah appear with Christ to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration (Matt. 17:3). What God has forbidden is necromantic practice of conjuring up spirits. "There shall not be found among you any one who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, any one who practices divination, a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer. . . . For these nations, which you are about to dispossess, give heed to soothsayers and to diviners; but as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you so to do. The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed" (Deut. 18:10–15).

God thus indicates that one is not to conjure the dead for purposes of gaining information; one is to look to God’s prophets instead. Thus one is not to hold a seance. But anyone with an ounce of common sense can discern the vast qualitative difference between holding a seance to have the dead speak through you and a son humbly saying at his mother’s grave, "Mom, please pray to Jesus for me; I’m having a real problem right now." The difference between the two is the difference between night and day. One is an occult practice bent on getting secret information; the other is a humble request for a loved one to pray to God on one’s behalf.

Overlooking the Obvious

Some objections to the concept of prayer to the saints betray restricted notions of heaven. One comes from anti-Catholic Loraine Boettner:

"How, then, can a human being such as Mary hear the prayers of millions of Roman Catholics, in many different countries, praying in many different languages, all at the same time?

"Let any priest or layman try to converse with only three people at the same time and see how impossible that is for a human being. . . . The objections against prayers to Mary apply equally against prayers to the saints. For they too are only creatures, infinitely less than God, able to be at only one place at a time and to do only one thing at a time.

"How, then, can they listen to and answer thousands upon thousands of petitions made simultaneously in many different lands and in many different languages? Many such petitions are expressed, not orally, but only mentally, silently. How can Mary and the saints, without being like God, be present everywhere and know the secrets of all hearts?" (Roman Catholicism, 142-143).

If being in heaven were like being in the next room, then of course these objections would be valid. A mortal, unglorified person in the next room would indeed suffer the restrictions imposed by the way space and time work in our universe. But the saints are not in the next room, and they are not subject to the time/space limitations of this life.

This does not imply that the saints in heaven therefore must be omniscient, as God is, for it is only through God’s willing it that they can communicate with others in heaven or with us. And Boettner’s argument about petitions arriving in different languages is even further off the mark. Does anyone really think that in heaven the saints are restricted to the King’s English? After all, it is God himself who gives the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues. Surely those saints in Revelation understand the prayers they are shown to be offering to God.

The problem here is one of what might be called a primitive or even childish view of heaven. It is certainly not one on which enough intellectual rigor has been exercised. A good introduction to the real implications of the afterlife may be found in Frank Sheed’s book Theology and Sanity, which argues that sanity depends on an accurate appreciation of reality, and that includes an accurate appreciation of what heaven is really like. And once that is known, the place of prayer to the saints follows.

"Directly to Jesus"

Some may grant that the previous objections to asking the saints for their intercession do not work and may even grant that the practice is permissible in theory, yet they may question it on other grounds, asking why one would want to ask the saints to pray for one. "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" they ask.

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!" But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

In Heaven and On Earth

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

 

#1. 2Mac 12 ONLY calls them "THE DEAD"
#2. in 1Thess 4 Paul ALSO calls them "THE DEAD in Christ"

so "at BEST" you are praying TO "THE DEAD" in Christ!

#3. We have NO example (not even in 2Mac 12) of anyone praying to "THE DEAD" in Christ or even the 2Mac 12 group called "THE DEAD" in 2Mac 12.

Your point fails here.

Here we see one of the few doctrinal Debates that Christ ever engages in directly. And in this case he utterly silences the opposition with devastating logic and reason!

#1. The term for "the DEAD" in Matt 22 is still "the dead" as we see in the text above. NOT "the ALIVE in Christ" or the "Super alive"

#2. The opposition first tries to put Christ in a logical BOX that requires "rejection of the teaching of the resurrection" to solve it! with the woman and 7 husbands thinking to prove how a simple thing like marriage would disprove any possibility of resurrection.

In their BOX they SHOW that the woman has NO RELATIONSHIP with any of her husbands UNTIL the resurrection occurs. This fits perfectly with their POV!. Christ does not challenge this part - He does not say "SHE is ALREADY in relationship with these men WHILE DEAD -- the problem is much worse than you think. Long before the resurrection God would need to figure out how to get them to relate".

Instead Christ shows that the solution is IN their relationships AT the resurrection!!

He never goes "Where you NEEDED" Him to go!

#3. Christ then places the Sadducees in a logical box that as ACCEPTANCE of the resurrection doctrine as the only way to solve it!

Christ points to God's statement to Moses at the burning bush "I AM the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob". Christ's point is that this is done LONG AFTER these men have died. (Obviously the Sadducees HAVE to agree with that obvious point).

He also states another obvious point that they HAVE to agree with "GOD is NOT the God of the DEAD"! In other words God CAN NOT be the God of Abraham WHILE he is dead - so the ONLY way for this statement to be true is for Abraham to be destined for RESURRECTION -- to become ALIVE again sinc God CAN ONLY be the GOD OF THE LIVING.

Obviously Abraham is not alive while Moses is talking to God so the point is that God MUST intend to bring Abraham BACK to life and that is called THE RESURRECTION

Their conclusion must be that BECAUSE of the resurrection God views them from a FUTURE POV when they WILL be made ALIVE and STILL claims them!

St. Luke's Gospel 20:38 adds "for all live unto him")


This point was so devastating as it PROVED the resurrection to these unbelievers that THEY WERE SILENCED.

But notice that to GET to that proof - you have to view Abraham as "THE DEAD" during God's discussion with Moses - which the Sadducees surely DID!

Your case is utterly destroyed by Matt 22.

This singular DEBATE shows such wisdom insight, logic and devastating positioning on the part of Christ that EVEN the Pharisees (who debated the Sadducees ALL the TIME on this subject) SAW that Christ utterly blew them out of the water!!

And in so doing - He also shattered your entire argument sir. I am shocked that you are so willing to expose your argument's flaws by even daring to mention this case!

In Christ,

Bob

 

In John 11 Christ said "LAZARUS(the PERSON) sleeps I go that I may WAKE HIM (the PERSON)".

He then says "LAZARUS (the PERSON) is DEAD"

your point dies in John 11.

Christ also points out that "LAZARUS WILL LIVE AGAIN" at the resurrection in the quote you provided.

Your point dies in John 11.

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is the second point in your post where you are using a "we THEY" terminology "as if" you are RC. Which is not a problem except for your profile.

 

Jesus himself spoke with both Moses and Elijah even though Moses was dead and buried for over a thousand years and Elijah was taken up into heaven nearly a thousand years before Jesus was born. Jesus is our very example of Christian living and here we have Jesus talking with a so-called “dead saint”
</font>[/QUOTE]Again you are in error.

#1. Elijah IS NOT dead even by your own confession - he is translated in the book of 2Kings and chapter 2.

#2. The RCC is anxious to get us all to believe in the "Assumption of Mary" EVEN THOUGH there is NO bible evidence/support AT ALL for such a notion. BUT in the book of JUDE we actually SEE a guote from the book "THE ASSUMPTION OF MOSES" and yet you want to turn blindly away from what IS IN the bible on that point insisting that MOSES WAS NOT bodily ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN no matter what the Bible says and Mary WAS no matter what the Bible does not say about her on that point!!

How "odd" that on that particular subject the RCC is so anxious to contradict scripture on each point!

#3. Given the TWO points above Christ is NOT conjuring the dead (as in LIVING dead as you prefer to view them) those that Paul calls "THE DEAD" in Christ - those that 2Macc12 calls "THE DEAD". So your efforts to drag that pagan practice into Chritianity fails right there.

#4. In this case (Matt 17) Christ IS GLORIFIED as "God the SON" for a brief moment. Christ AS GOD COULD have raised the dead then and there - IF we could find a way to ignore scripture in JUDE regarding support for "THE ASSUMPTION OF MOSES". In other words it would be impossible from the Matt 17 example to insist that no miracle took place -- "this is just a classic example of conjuring the dead which must now be practiced by all God's people".

the PAGANS agree that the dead SPIRITS are active just as you say and that this conjuring of the dead is in fact an audience with LIVING spirits. The Pagans and the RCC seem to agree on that ONE point.

But the Pagans (as we see with the witch of endore) are not as GOOD at it - in that she was the only one to SEE THE DEAD spirit - but in Matt 17 you claim that two deas spirits are SEEN.

In any case the points above show that this is in no way an audience with those that Paul calls "THE DEAD" in Christ!!

Your point fails to survive Matt 17!

In Christ,

Bob

 

This is sorta-false. It is true that a few hundred years ago mankind was "in the dark ages" and Christianity was saturated with the practices of paganism including praying to the dead.

A practice of ancestory worship and prayers to the Dead that EVEN the RCC admits to being opposed to God in OT times -- see the link on this thread for RC sources showing the link between RC prayers to the dead and ancestor worship -- "family gods"

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3841/2.html#000018

That practice evolved over time as paganism was incorporated into the Christian faith in Europe and the former Roman Empire.

But as for WHEN that practice was condemned - refer to Isaiah 8:19-20 --

"Do not consult the DEAD on behalf of the living"!!

The pagans did this thinking that those who have died are in fact living spirits active and able to be contacted. What is the RCC thinking?

Dare I say - "the same thing as the pagans"!!

WE have NO EXAMPLE of prayers TO the dead (not even "the DEAD" in Christ) in all of scripture.

#1. It is NOT true that this started in the earliest days of Christianity because THE BIBLE writers lived then and we have NO EXAMPLE of prayers to the "DEAD IN CHRIST" in all of the NT or OT!!

#2. Having said that - I do agree with you that this popular adaptation of paganism IS common in the Christian church NOT only in the dark ages but even today in some groups such as the ones you mentioned.

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. The first point of quivocation is that IF ANYONE in heaven (saint or not) has any knowledge of the prayers of the saints - THEN there are DEAD SAINTS in heaven that are ALSO aware. Equivocation at that level is not a form of "exegesis" it is "wishful thinking".

#2. There is NOTHING in the quote above showing that "THE DEAD" in Christ (As Paul calls them) are HEARING anything from those praying on earth while in the state of being "THE DEAD in Christ"!

Here again is muddled logic to the nth power.

Rev 5 makes no reference at all to "saints" hearing prayers!!

Without that key component - the flawed logic in that point dies before it gets started.

in Christ,

bob

 

#1. THERE IS NO example in ALL OF SCRIPTURE where a NT writer tells us to "ASK a Christian in heaven to pray FOR YOU".

#2. God says clearly "DO NOT consult THE DEAD on behalf of the living" Isaiah 8:19. Deut 18 says not to "call upon the dead" in fact the law of Moses said to kill those that do. (A theocracy can be a tough place to live if you are prong to communcating with the dead - I guess)

This is actually a great quote because it takes Deut 18:11 and says "NOT SO!" and the proof is a total wrench of Matt 17 and a claim that God has at times asked us to do EXACTLY what Deut 18:11 forbids!!

A more direct confession of negation of scripture could hardly be imagined!!

As was already pointed out Matt 17 is NOT an example of ANYTHING being done with a dead person or one who is dead and not raised to life!!

There is no "For the purpose of gaining information" mentioned in the text. The RCC "spins" this text to say "go ahead and CALL upon the dead EVEN though Deut 18 condemns it -- BUT only do so to ASK the dead for FAVORS not information"!!

That argument fails for anyone reading Deut 18 or Isaiah 8 AND NOT ALREADY calling upon the dead - asking for favors of the dead!

Notice that in the text of Deut 18 THEY are STILL referred to "AS THE DEAD"! And the RCC uses that same context to say "GO AHEAD CONTACT" them but ask for no information - just FAVORS!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The remaining arguments in DB's quote never give a single reference to a dead person being contacted (not even for favors let alone information) so I will leave them to fail on their own.

The argument that the LIVING can appeal to each other to pray - is not disputed.

But even the RCC ITSELF denies use of that SAME "prayers to the dead" FORM to contact the living and ask them to pray for you!

I want to thank those who are bringing in the RC POV here with genuine sincerity because I doubt that we would dig this deep to expose the full foundation of that doctrine if it were not for serious comments for the RC view as in the case above.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is correct. When RC posters use this to defend praying TO the dead they are making a blunder.

#1. But this prayer FOR the dead is prayer FOR those in mortal sin (idolatry) that are said in 2Macc12 to be JUDGED for that mortal sin. The RCC claims that NO Prayers FOR the dead can benefit those who die in mortal sin. So EVEN the RCC would deny BENEFIT in that case. Again - a blunder on the part of RC posters.

#2. The term "THE DEAD" is used here for those DEAD in 2Macc 12 -- this is devastating to the RC case because they make NO distinction between the DEAD in purgatory and THE DEAD in heaven. In other words the RCC never says "THEY ARE THE DEAD in Purgatory but once they get moved into heaven they BECOME the ALIVE IN CHRIST" --

So the term USED in 2Macc12 blows the RC terms for THE DEAD out of the water as they "hoped" to spin this around to "THE ALIVE IN CHRIST".

See?

(As a good Southern Baptist I just knew you would love that point! --- You're welcome)

In Christ,

Bob

 

I think Roman Catholic don't like to pray to Elijah because he didn't like the Idol Worshippers and killed many Baal Worshippers.