1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Catechisms

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Adonia, Jan 26, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Top Posters
Page 2 of 11
  1. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    How you can get what you have gotten by that quote from the catechism is beyond me. There is nothing there that even remotely resembles what you have claimed. We have the "free will" to choose or reject God, that is what the particular passage you quoted is in essence saying.

    "For this reason, at every time and in every place, God draws close to man".

    God tries to draw close to man all the time - it is man who rejects Him.

    "He calls man to seek him, to know him, to love him with all his strength".

    Do you reject this truth?

    "He calls together all men, scattered and divided by sin, into the unity of his family, the Church".

    Again, do you also reject this?

    "So that this call should resound throughout the world, Christ sent forth the apostles he had chosen, commissioning them to proclaim the gospel: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."4 Strengthened by this mission, the apostles "went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them and confirmed the message by the signs that attended it."

    Words straight from the Holy Scriptures - where's the problem?

    "Those who with God's help have welcomed Christ's call and freely responded to it are urged on by love of Christ to proclaim the Good News everywhere in the world. This treasure, received from the apostles, has been faithfully guarded by their successors. All Christ's faithful are called to hand it on from generation to generation, by professing the faith, by living it in fraternal sharing, and by celebrating it in liturgy and prayer."

    You are troubled by those words above somehow? Please enlighten me.
     
    #21 Adonia, Feb 1, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Only in your estimation and I therefore reject your contention wholeheartedly.
     
    #22 Adonia, Feb 1, 2020
  3. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The same can easily be said about the Baptist faith tradition.
     
    #23 Adonia, Feb 1, 2020
  4. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Free will is never taught regarding salvation. We do not have the capacity to choose God. God must choose us. This is clear in scripture.

    God doesn't call all men. If He did, all men would come and would be redeemed.

    What is correct is that God chose his Apostles and commissioned them.

    Here we see the false mixed with truth so as to muddy things.
     
    #24 Particular, Feb 1, 2020
  5. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    You are simply wrong. At the crucifixion one man on one side of Jesus chose God and salvation while the other man on the other side of Jesus did not. God wants all men to be saved, to come to Him, yet obviously here on Calvary one man through the "free will" that all men have been given by God chose not to.

    You are being taught a false doctrine.
     
    #25 Adonia, Feb 1, 2020
  6. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The thief never chose God. Jesus chose the thief. Look at what is said.

    Luke 23:40-43
    Jesus holds the power as King. Jesus decides who enters the Kingdom. Jesus chooses. It is right there in the passage.

    Your version declares that the thief chose God and therefore had reason to boast that his own choice got him into the kingdom. But, that is not expressed at all in the passage. In fact, the thief knew he was justly condemned. It is purely by God graciously choosing the thief that the thief is redeemed. (By the way...no water baptism required.)

    If God had wanted all...every person at the crucifixion and every human in the world would be redeemed. God's will cannot be thwarted.

    You proclaim God as weak and man as strong. It is what Rome has taught for centuries and it is a false teaching. Synergism oozes from the pores of Rome.
     
    #26 Particular, Feb 1, 2020
  7. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, let us look at the passage. The thief says: "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom". So before Jesus says anything, it is the thief who speaks.....and chooses. The other man stays silent and does not choose Jesus (as is his right under the concept of the free will that God has given every human being).

    Yes, Jesus holds all the power - I totally agree. It is his words that grants the thief a place in heaven, no baptism is required of this one individual. As for the rest of us, the Scriptures remain clear about the requirement of baptism.

    I do not. God has all the power - he can do whatever he wants. Man is nothing compared to his greatness. I really do not know where you get such an assessment. We are not the one's who follow the doctrines of a sect started by one man (John Smyth), who was nothing but a renegade of the original renegades.
     
    #27 Adonia, Feb 2, 2020
  8. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The thief doesn't choose. The thief makes a request that the King remember him. The King is under no compulsion to grant him the request, but the King, showing amazing grace, chooses to allow the thief into the Kingdom.
    In no way, shape, or form does the thief choose God.
    Before this moment, we see that the thief had been observing and seeing how Jesus responded to his persecutors.
    As for baptism it is never required for salvation. None of the Apostles were baptized other than Paul. However, baptism is an ordinance of obedience where we make our declaration of citizenship in the Kingdom. It is entirely separate from salvation.

    If you declare baptism as a necessary work for salvation then you declare grace empty and void.

    I anticipate you will attempt to use
    Acts 2:37-38 as an argument. Let's look at it.

    When you read this verse in the Greek language you see that Peter emphasizes repentance for the forgiveness of sins. The verse can be rendered, Repent, everyone of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and be baptized and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    The key to forgiveness is repentance, not baptism.

    In conclusion:
    Salvation is not a synergist activity where you cause God to act and graciously save you because you chose him and chose to be baptized. Such a belief places all the glory on the human who rationally and smartly chose the correct God.

    Instead, salvation is a monergist activity where God caused you to be made alive and gave you faith so that you would repent and therefore obey His ordinance of baptism. It is all God doing the work in causing you to respond to His adoptive work on your behalf. You get zero credit. No reason to boast.

    Sadly, synergism runs rampant. People demanding that they have control and God react to their decisions. In this area, the Reformation failed. Humans and churches lift up themselves and have a small view of God. The Roman Catholic Church is preeminent in synergism and small God thinking.
     
    #28 Particular, Feb 2, 2020
  9. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    A request is choosing. The fact is, had he not chosen he would have stayed silent and it is unbelievable that you can come to the point at which you have arrived on this. You take what can be the only common sense conclusion of this event and throw it out the window.
     
    #29 Adonia, Feb 3, 2020
  10. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A request is not choosing. It is an acknowledgement that one cannot do anything. The person does not have the capacity to choose. The person only has the capacity to ask.
    The fact is God moved his heart and caused the thief to ask. Somehow, between the thief's trial and his sentencing on the cross, the thief was drawn by God to acknowledge he was a sinner in need of reconciliation. It went against his nature to repent. His nature was to rebel against God. But...God...made him alive with Christ...for by grace He was saved... (Ephesians 2)

    I take what is the biblical conclusion. You create a conclusion through philosophical rationalism.
     
    #30 Particular, Feb 3, 2020
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why did he believe though, and not other thief?
     
    #31 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2020
  12. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    How do I know why he believed. Maybe he wanted to repent of his evil ways and here was the Master right next to him with a once in a lifetime opportunity. What did he have to lose?

    The question I have is why do you believe and your next door neighbor does not?
     
    #32 Adonia, Feb 5, 2020
  13. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Matthew tells us.

    Matthew 3:11-12 He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and gather his wheat into the barn, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.”

    The repentant thief is the wheat Jesus gathers. The unrepentant thief is the chaff Jesus burns with unquenchable fire.

    The entire Bible declares God's choice of whom he wills to redeem. The repentant thief repented because Jesus chose him and the unrepentant thief did not repent because Jesus did not choose him.
     
    #33 Particular, Feb 5, 2020
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God enabled me to believe unto Jesus to be saved!
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2020
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    5,020
    Likes Received:
    941
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Where do you get such stuff? Why would God choose one and not the other of His creations? The Scriptures say He desires all to come to Him, that none should not perish. He exists, He made the sacrifice - it is up to each of us as individuals to accept Him and follow Him through our own free will.
     
    #35 Adonia, Feb 6, 2020
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Either God wanted some to get saved, who are, or else all shall be saved in the end!
     
    #36 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2020
  17. Particular

    Particular Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2019
    Messages:
    2,331
    Likes Received:
    500
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you ignore scripture I share?

    We see that God gives sinners to Jesus that will repent.

    John 6:36-39 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

    Jesus specifically tells us the decision process, which we see take place in the repentant thief.

    John 10:25-28 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.
    My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    Adonia, it seems that you refuse to read these words of Jesus and accept them. Why?
    If what Jesus says is true...that makes your church a liar. Who is more important to you, Jesus or your church?
     
    #37 Particular, Feb 6, 2020
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To many Roman Catholics, Jesus and the Mother Church same thing!
     
    #38 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2020
  19. Walpole

    Walpole Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2019
    Messages:
    1,068
    Likes Received:
    86
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    No just many Roman Catholics, but to ALL Catholics, the Church is the body of Christ. (cf. Eph 5:23, Col 1:24)

    The Church therefore is an extension of the incarnation. It is the body of Christ, continuing in time and thus it is a divine institution. The reason this is so shocking to Protestants is because no Protestant sect claims to be a divine institution. Hence, they are nothing more than religious Elks Clubs.
     
    #39 Walpole, Feb 6, 2020
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    the true church of Jesus Christ is NOT Rome, nor Baptist, but of all of the redeemed saved since Adam forward!
     
    #40 Yeshua1, Feb 6, 2020
Page 2 of 11
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...