I Corinthians 1:7 shows that gifts continue

So, to hear Briguy and DHK tell it, the Spirit doesn't work anymore?

All the gifts are gone?

That would make the bible a dead book. You would not be able to draw any inspiration from it.

But my bible is alive and well!! Inspires me and I see all manner of great things every time I read it.

It is the "Living Word", because the Holy Ghost is there to lead me through it! All the gifts are alive and well, because we have not all been taken to where Jesus is yet!!

Praise God!!

Tam

 

I am glad you do Tam. Now tell me what readng your Bible has to do with the:
gift of healing
gift of tongues
gift of interpretation
gift of prophesy
gift of revelatory knowledge, etc.

Are you serious? You can't read your Bible without having these gifts? These gifts must be in operation for you to have any understanding of the Word of God??
So you have confined the Spirit of God to the gifts of the Spirit (which have ceased). And, if I am right and you are wrong, I guess you are spiritually dead as well, according to your own theology. For the Spirit you serve only lives in the confines of the gifts of the Spirit. What an anemic God you serve. That is what I was trying to get across to SMM as well. You are trying to confine the Holy Spirit to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God cannot be confined. He doesn't fit into your little Charismatic box. My God is much greater than that.
DHK

 

"D"

Guess what I agree!

God can not be confined to a tiny Charismatic Box...

No more than you can confine Him to a tiny Cessesionist Box...

He is far bigger than either your or my religious background can comprehend or specify...

What I find amazing is that your argument is quite like the atheist who argues against the existance of God because he himself hasn't seen or experienced God...

In the same way you argue the 'Party Line' about the 'Demonstrable Gifts' ceasing from not having experienced the genuine yourself...

Yet, there are people on this forum who steadfastly confess to having been filled with the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues who you generally agree with in most other areas...

Who have a continuing and steadfast testimony of their Love for God, Evidence of Real Salvation and a Passion for the Word of God...

You may believe we are 'sincerely wrong'...

But, if we are as wrong as you say, consider this...

We *ALL* confess Jesus as Lord...

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

And, the Holy Spirit will _not_ share His habitation

For our God is a Jealous God...

Note: I have _never_ said that everything that goes on in the name of Pentecost is genuine...

You've read me enough to know that as the truth...

SMM

 

Tam, I am surprized at how you don't read my posts. DHK believes all the gifts are gone. They were all miraculous in nature and they all passed away. For many years I have believed that the service gifts still remain. That is all the gifts beyond the 4 I mentioned earlier. Yes, it is true I am re-thinking that but I have not reached that conclusion yet. I do not believe that the "perfect" is the Bible. I believe that it is when we see jesus "face to face" literally. Either when He comes for me or I die and go to Him. Because I hold to that I cannot see how the other gifts, beyond the "sign" gifts have gone, because Paul said they would remain until the perfect comes. So my struggle goes on. DHK makes a great argument for his side of this issue. Now, to say that because I can read the Bible without an emphasis on the gifts of the Spirit means I can't be inspired, seems way out there. I can read through the Gospels daily and be inspired beyond words. For God so loved me, lowly sinner Brian, that He sent His very own Son to die in my place. No gifts, no hooting and hollering, no being slain, just pure love, and that is my inspiration. That is what drives my Christian walk.
SMM, by the way, the Biblical gift of Miracles was the raising of the dead. This was a gift used very little. Healing was the ability to heal the sick, miraculously, but was a seperate gift, that is why they are listed as 2 different gifts. My question is: How often is the gift of miracles manifested in your assembly today? If it isn't?, why? Why doesn't your preacher walk up to a casket at a funeral service and command the dead person to arise? That is what Peter and Paul did. Could it be that they had something different then what we have today? I'll let you soak that in for a while.

In Love and in Christ,
Brian

 

DHK said:
I am glad you do Tam. Now tell me what readng your Bible has to do with the:
gift of healing
gift of tongues
gift of interpretation
gift of prophesy
gift of revelatory knowledge, etc.

Are you serious? You can't read your Bible without having these gifts? These gifts must be in operation for you to have any understanding of the Word of God??
So you have confined the Spirit of God to the gifts of the Spirit (which have ceased). And, if I am right and you are wrong, I guess you are spiritually dead as well, according to your own theology. For the Spirit you serve only lives in the confines of the gifts of the Spirit. What an anemic God you serve. That is what I was trying to get across to SMM as well. You are trying to confine the Holy Spirit to the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God cannot be confined. He doesn't fit into your little Charismatic box. My God is much greater than that.
DHK

Tam says:

I'm glad to see that we finally agree!! You said "God cannot be confined. He doesn't fit into your little Charismatic box. My God is much greater than that."

My God also is a great big God and cannot be contained in a little box of any kind!! My point is that the Holy Spirit is still here! He is not limited by God! He still does what He has always done. Since the book of Acts, the day of Pentecost, He has been at work. Who do you think gives you the revelation you get when {b]you[/b] read the bible??

I give Him full credit for everything that He does. I do not take away part of the bible(the gifts or anything else) simply because some people tell me they don't exist.

We are to believe ONLY the bible. I have seen God do things that you would not believe, even if you saw them.

Briguy, I read your posts but you are also on the wrong track. But if ya'll want to believe that all the gifts are gone or part of them are gone, there is no changing you minds. Go ahead and believe what you want; you will not deal with us, but with God when we get the end of this life/world.

There is nowhere in the bible where it talks about 70 AD, the sacking of Jerusalem, being the cut off point for some/all gifts being deleted!

SMM, I'm with you, and even if some people did read about Mel Tary and others who raised the dead in Indonesia, they still would not believe.

Luke16-31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Peace,

Tam

 

There were many deaths in Peter and Paul's day...

They didn't heal everyone, they didn't raise all the dead...

I also disagree that Working of Miracles was only raising the dead...

How about water into wine?

Or, a hand catching someone and pulling them back from a precipice after they have felt themselves going past the point of no return... But, no one was within 30 yards of them...

I am not sure that I would call that 'Healing' as I hadn't hit bottom.

But, as I had and have very little upper body strength and as I was some 400 feet above the rocks below...

And, as I was fully past any chance of balance on the outside of the railing headfirst and slipping...

I would think that that would qualify as somewhat miraculous?

SMM

 

What were those scriptures again that are suppost to prove to some that the 70 AD theroy that some or all of the gifts of the Spirit ceased? I'm still waiting so I can study it out. Just the scriptures (no commentary need) and I will study it out.

 

What I don't understand is why some segments of Christendom are so wrapped up in something that was never intended for Christians. The Bible says that only Jews require a sign. Gentiles don't even require signs yet we have untold thousands of people that are wrapped up in something that is not even needed or required by Christians today.

Signs were given and manifested in relation to the nation of Israel and the kingdom. The offer of the kingdom has been taken away from the nation of Israel and the nation of Israel as a whole has been set aside for a dispensation while God calls out a people for His name. Therefore signs can not be in existence, because the whole purpose of their existence has been set aside.

Unless the nation of Israel and the kingdom are both in play signs can not be in play. And God is not dealing with the nation of Israel as a whole now so there is no need for the signs to be manifested.

The signs were given to at least some Gentiles in order to provoke Israel to jealousy when the offer of the kingdom was still open to the nation. But when that offer ceased then the signs ceased.

You can also see these in the Gospel of John. Jesus performs the sign of changing water into wine on the seventh day. Then He heals the nobleman's son, which is a sign of coming healing for God's firstborn son (Israel). There may have been one other sign performed before He purposefully went and spent two days with the Samaritans. This is a picture of God dealing with the Gentiles for two days or two thousand years (the current dispensation). And if you will notice there were no signs performed during that two days.

Then He returns to Cana where another sign is performed. And then John goes on to record several other signs that were performed by Christ (eight total signs that are written).

Then John tells us why he wrote about those signs. It was so that the Jews in reading his account might believe that Jesus was the Christ. The King of the kingdom that was at hand.

Today we are to read that Gospel with the signs and believe that Jesus is the Christ, the King of the kingdom. But we (Gentiles) do not require a sign in order to believe so therefore signs are not in place now.

 

1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

The gifts were given severally as the Holy Spirit wills for and to the church...

I have a power saw I also have a hand saw...

A lot of things I do, does not "need" a skill saw and can be accomplished with the hand saw...

But, it sure goes a lot quicker and a lot less tiring to do it with the Power Saw than in my own strength...

In the same way...

I'd prefer to be open the Operations of the Holy Spirit and rely on His Power than to try to do God's Work in my own strength...

SMM

 

I didn't say nor imply that all gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased. Only the sign gifts. The need for sign gifts has ceased so they no longer exist.

The Holy Spirit still gifts believers to accomplish what needs to be accomplished, but signs are something that aren't needed at this time so no one is gifted with those gifts.

 

Maybe the Gifts aren't required in Mainland USA...

I don't agree with that premise at all...

After all I don't need to run the A/C at 70... 72 is adequate and saves power...

But, it is oh so much more edifying to my sleep patterns to run it at 70!

But, in foreign countries where there is a large influence of the satanic I'd think that most Missionaries would find having the full manifestation of the Holy Spirits power tools a bit comforting...

The signs weren't just for signs they were for the edification (read that as instruction and comfort) of the whole church. Not just an evangelism tool.

SMM

 

The signs weren't just for signs they were for the edification (read that as instruction and comfort) of the whole church. Not just an evangelism tool.

SMM

Amen~

 

So why were they sign gifts, if they were for believers?

 

Could there be more than one use for things God does?

Look at this potential rendering of Hebrews 11...

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

For the unbeliever who has no Faith they don't expect anything from God... So, it's a Sign to them...

For the Believers the Sign Gifts are an expected "substance" of their Faith...

That is they do not happen to prove anything...

They happen because the believers are believers walking in the fulness of the Spirit...

Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

First, these signs shall follow believers...

Not believers chasing after signs...

Second, it's believers, not the five fold Ministry, that these signs are to be following...

That is strike two, in my view, for some of the Fruits, Nuts, and Flakes I see in todays churches...

While these Signs in Mark may not be an exact match for the Sign Gifts of the Holy Spirit the indication is that they were to be a normal part of the Believers Life...

All believers, not just a priviledged and blessed few at the top of the totem pole...

In my opinion the Holy Spirit will respond with power to any Believer (whether tongue talker or not) who approaches a situation with and in Faith...

The Baptists, in general, have been taught to expect nothing so they don't normally pray such things in Faith...

But, the Pentecostals & Charismatics are not much better because they generally believe that only a priviledged few can pray such prayers...

So, they don't bother praying with Faith either!

I am sure those far more versed than I can do better...

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It is not enough to merely believe that He "is", though...

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and {They're smart enough to} tremble. Annotation mine.

SMM

 

SMM you can't assign meaning to signs just because you want them to exist. The Bible clearly states that these signs were for a purpose. That purpose is signular and that purpose can be seen in the Gospel of John. That purpose is no longer in existence, although they will make a return when God starts dealing with Israel as an entire nation one day.

When that day comes Jews will again manifest these signs as will at least some Gentiles. But Christians will not be a part of that, because the church will have been taken out via the rapture.

But until then they do not exist because there is no need for them to exist.

So people who are supposedly gifted with these sign gifts. Are they able to take up serpents without harm? Are they able to drink posion with no death resulting?

If not then they are frauds, because if they are truly gifted with sign gifts then they should be able to do these things.

Just more proof that the sign gifts are not in tact today.

Why can't we just let the Bible shape us instead of the other way around?

 

So what does this prove? The signs (miracles) happened to the believers of the first century. They were always done by believers, but not for believers. What? Was Jesus, Paul, and Peter unbelievers in your opinion? They were the one doing the miracles.

For what purpose? To show the unbelieving Jews that the gospel was from God. They were a sign to the unbelieving Jew. They were not for the edification of the church (primarily).

No, this is what the Charismatics do today. They don't have the Biblical gift of languages; they only pretend, and speak some gibberish instead--a string of nonsense syllables and think that they are speaking in tongues. They are chasing after Satan's conterfeit of tongues.

Can you demontstrate this "theory" from Scripture? As certain signs followed believers it was to convince unbelieving Jews of the authenticity of the gospel. That was the purpose of a sign gift. It was a sign to the nation of Israel. See 1Cor.14:21. Nowhere does it say that it is a sign to believers. Study what it means to be a sign gift.

Yeah, pretty much all of the Charismatic churches.

The indication was that they were for the first century Christians and then only for a select few. However, even if I give you the benefit of the doubt, they are still sign gifts. These signs shall follow you. Signs were for the unbelieving Jews. See 1Cor.14:21. They were never meant for the edification of the believers. Why would a believer need a sign? Don't you as a believer believe the gospel? Why then do you need a sign?

Are you now just coming to the realization that not all believers have to speak in tongues? They didn't in the First Century, and no one has that ability today. If not every one had the gift in the first century why is it the most sought after gift today by every Charismatic?

Nowhere in the Bible are we commanded to seek for the gift of tongues. In fact we are discouraged from seeking after tongues and encouraged to seek after prophecy (preaching) instead. Just a cursory reading of the fourteenth chapter of First Corinthians will demonstrate that to be very evident. But the Charismatics are determined to twist every verse in that chapter to make it fit into their own preconceived theology.

Baptists don't pray for things that are against the will of God. I don't pray for God to speak to me in a burning bush such as He spoke to Moses. I know it is not His will. I know it is not His will to bestow on me the gift of healing such as he did in Acts 5:16 on Peter. BTW, you can't find anyone today who has that gift. From the time that I have challenged you to demonstrate someone who has that gift and can demonstrate that he has that gift, you have been unable to do so. The gift has ceased (along with all the others). That is proof enough.

Pray what prayers: "God give me the fake demonic gift of gibberish because I can't have the genuine gift of tongues that was given to the Apostles."

I don't believe you know what faith is.

That is why we don't pray for things already past.

Check out the first verse of the chapter. Faith is that which you don't see. We walk by faith and not by sight. By you see others praying in tongues. You contradict yourself.

We all believe in God. So what is the inference? That the Baptists on this board are not saved? Accusations like that can get you banned. You can do better than that!
DHK

 

Well, actually I can assign any meaning I want to, in my own sect.

And, just because you disagree doesn't mean that I am wrong...

'
More than one purpose for the Gifts (including Sign Gifts) is present in Scripture...

And, the Edification of the Church is, I believe you'll find, the more important issue than signs to the Jews when Paul is dealing with Spiritual Gifts...

Besides all this...

You are forgetting a very important issue...

(A lot of Pentecostals do so, too.)

The Sovreignty of God.

It is *HE* that distributes severally as **HE** wills...

Not as man wills...

SMM

 

Yes he distributed the gifts as HE wished. The sovereignty of God definitely was involved. That is why not all had the gift of tongues, and not all were to seek the gift. Only those to whom God sovereignly gave the gift got the gift. Can we be in agreement there?
But the purpose of the gift was the same. It was a sign gift. It was a sign to the unbelieving Jew. That is what is stated in 1Cor.14:21.
DHK

 

DHK,

Respectfully,

Fighting with you over this issue is pointless...

No matter what is shared or stated you will read into it your own bias against Pentecostals and Charismatics.

If you *really* feel that I have accused Baptists of not being saved then please take it before the Governing Board for Review.

You know very well I did no such thing.

Had you PM's me about this accusation I would have responded by PM

SMM

 

There is some truth in humor. And unfortunately there are a lot of people that are doing just that.

I 100% agree with that statement. It doesn't mean a hill of beans what I believe. Unfortunately for you the Bible says you are wrong and we must believe the Bible. It is clearly stated that there is a singular puprose for signs. There is no way you can get around that.

If that is so please provide book, chapter and verse.

That is incorrect, because the message of the kingdom was to the Jew only while Christ was on the earth. During the reoffer of the kingdom it was to the Jew first and then the Gentile. Even the halfbreed Samaritans (half Jew/half Gentile) got a shot at the kingdom before the Gentiles.

Only by the grace of God are Gentiles even a part of His plan.

There are gifts for the edification of the church, but sign gifts don't edify the church, because that's not what their purpose was for.

That is absolutely correct. God said signs are for the Jews. So we can either take Him at His Word or we can call Him a liar. I'll take Him at His Word. It has never failed before.