SDA Hypocrisy?

I'm no SDA and won't attempt to answer for them; I'll just answer as a Calvinist:</font>[/QUOTE]GE - You are Calvinist??!!!

SAY it aint so!

Surely then - just 3-point! Not 4 or 5 point! Surely not!

(I thought we agreed on more than that)

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]You know, Bob, I don't think I'm very well read, but have done some reading in my time - but here in South Africa, I've never come across this 3,4,5-point business; so frankly I admit ignorance. I have done some reading and study of, and writing on, Calvin's writings, mainly his Institutes, Harmony and some Sermons and Commentaries. I discovered I was as thorough a Calvinist - in agreement with Calvin - as any could get. I differ with him though on the issues of the Sabbath and baptism, while I'm Sabbatharian a-baptist.

 

Brother Bob,

Yes its unappetizing allright! Now when I think of a pork chop I think of a plate full of trichina larvae hidden somewhere in there just waiting to attack my innards! Well-cooked or not, I dont want to take any chances. Not that I dont like pork chops and ham sandwiches though. Our Church actually makes a vegetarian version of ham slices like you'd put on a sandwich and also sausage like you use to make sausage patties for breakfast and its amazing how good they taste. Also sausage links. I actually like those better than real pork. And since they taste better and you dont have to worry about all those little critters inside of it just waiting to ambush your intestines.... it just makes the whole meal more pleasant.

You've probably seen alot of the Morningstar Products in the grocery store, Grillers, and stuff like that, vegetarian frozen patties... Even worldly Doctors often tell their heart patients to start eating those instead of the red meat and pork stuff because it brings their cholesterol down and things like that.

And there's even vegetarian Hot Dogs called "Not Dogs" and just about everything you can think of to substitute.

You can see some of them here:

Vegetarian Meatless Products

 

I "suppose" if we ignored Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath SHALL ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship"...</font>[/QUOTE]It's always nice to take Scripture out of its context to justify one's position, however unbiblical it may be. Durint the Tribulation Period (also called Jacob's Trouble) Christ is going to come specifically for the nation of Israel (so then all Israel shall be saved [Isa.11:26]). Then, shortly after that we will enter into the Millennial Kingdom where Christ will reign for a thousand years. During that period of time the Sabbath will be re-established. But for now Israel, as well as her offerings, have been set aside. There is no Temple now. There will be a Temple in the Millennial Kingdom. There is no Sabbath now. There will be in the Millennial Kingdom. God is not dealing with the Jewish nation now. He has called out a nation unto himself out of the Gentiles (both Jews and Gentiles) that all who believe in Christ shall be saved--not become Jews and worship the Sabbath. We are not Jews. We are Christians. The Sabbath was given to the Jews, the nation of Israel. Isa. 66 only verifies that even further. It doesn not apply to the Gentilies. We are living in a Gentile age, not the Millennian Kingdom.

Good point! What was Jesus teaching? Why not quote the whole passage?

Mark 2:27-28 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.
--and not man for the Sabbath
In other words man was not made to be a slave to the Sabbath as the SDA's teach. This blows the SDA's teaching away. The SDA's teach that man is a slave to the Sabbath. Christ taught the very opposite. We are not in bondage to the Sabbath. We are not obligated to keep the Sabbath in any way.

So what? And he created the sun, moon, and stars on the fourth day. Does that mean on every fourth day (Wednesday) we should worship the sun, moon and stars. There is no command here to worship on the Sabbath.

Now, God takes the Sabbath Day and gives it to the nation of Israel as a sign to them and their generations--a sign of the covenant between them and Jehovah forever. He never rescinded that covenant. But you want to do away with the Scripture. Have you ripped it out of your Bible yet?

It is only inconvenient to those who try to force Sabbath-keeping on the rest of mankind, when the Bible does not teach such.

Then they are wrong too. For the Bible gives no such command for any Christian to keep the Sabbath. That is plain and simple.

Man can believe what he wants. I believe in sola scriptura. What saith the Lord? The Bible teaches that keeping the Sabbath was a sign betweeen Jehovan and the nation of Israel and for their generations forever, not just for a temporary periond of time, but forever. I am not a Jew. The Sabbath was not given for me.

The bottome line is that the SDA's don't have a case at all when it comes to their insistence on keeping the Sabbath. It was a sign of the covenant given to the Jews. You are not a Jew.
DHK

 

DHK

The only case SDAs have to come up with to support the Sabbath is that we need to keep the 10 commandments!!!

Since the Sabbath is one of those commandments.


And there is all sorts of Biblical support for that.

You cant pull one commandment of your choice right out of the 10 and claim we dont need that one.


and for Heaven's sake, just this one verse is good enough for me!

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Claudia

 

NOTICE THE PART THAT SAYS "and if there be any other commandment"

Romans 13:
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment , it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

 

quote:
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So -- the bottom line is -- there is a dirth of focus on anything like "evidence" to support the title/topic of this thread in the OP.
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And of course the OP and the other "SDAs do it wrong here" posts are simply "trying" to show some unique problem with SDAs. The point above is that the arguments IN FAVOR of Christ the Creator's Ten Commandments are NOT unique to SDAs.

The Argument is that EVEN the support of Christ the Creator's only Holy Day - is Own Memorial of Creation - as specified in HIS 4th commandment is ALSO not a unique view of SDAs.

But when "inconvenient" facts are brought out - the classic response is to ignore the salient points in the argument and simply make an unsupported assertion.

Like that.

The Exodus 20 Words of our Creator God MAKE the case for the Sabbath as MADE AT creation and as A memorial.

The Isaiah 66 statement "From SABBATH TO SABBATH shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to WORSHIP" stands with the "devastating scope" explicitly stated "ALL MANKIND"! No way to delete that scripture.

First of all - that is nothing more than a story based on bad escatology.

Second of all - even in that contrived story you have ALL MANKIND honoring Christ the Creator's OWN memorial of Creation AFTER the CROSS!

The ALL MANKIND scope remains even when one is given license to simply "make stuff up" as in the case of your post above.

HOW did that "solve your problem" of trying to downsize Christ the Creator's Holy Day so that DOES NOT apply to "ALL MANKIND" or so that it is abolished at the Cross?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Where in the New Testament does it say: "Thou shalt keep the "The Ten Commandments?" Where does it specifically say: "Thou shalt keep the Sabbath Day?"
Where does it say this in that there is absolutely no question that it is directed to Gentile Christians only.

It doesn't say "Ten Commandments." It says "the Law." The Law is a general term. It doesn't necessarily include keeping the Sabbath just as it doesn't necessarily include wearing clothing of all one type. If you keep the Sabbath why don't you wear clothing of all one kind (all linen or all wool--nothing mixed). Why do you insist in keeping one part of the law and not another? How do you know that "the Law" is simply referring the Tem Commandments and that is all. The law is a general term, even as it is a general term in America. You don't keep all the laws of Pennsylvania as I demonstrated. (I didn't even quote all of them to you.) You can't. You don't even know what they all are. There is no way that you can drive down a country road and obey the law in Pennsylvania. And just so you don't get all self-righteous and indignant the law has to apply to ALL SDA's not just you. I am sure that there are SDA's in Pennsylvania that drive country roads and don't stop every 10 miles and set off a rocket, as that law stated. Laws need to be updated. That one has not been updated as of yet.

Then give Biblical evidence in the New Testament where we are commanded to keep all of the Old Testament Ten Commandments. I have not seen it yet.

This has nothing to do with the Ten Commandments. It is referring to the commands of Christ which were not the Ten Commandments at all. Christ's command was: "to love another even as I have loved you." It was that "men ought always to pray and faint not." In respect to humility it was: "As you have seen me do, do likewise." It was:
"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name; ask and ye shall receive that your joy may be full."
It was: "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
These were some of the many commands of Christ.
Never did Christ command us to keep the Sabbath.
Never did Christ command us to keep the Ten Commandments.
DHK

 

Typical 5 pointers - TULIP

T - Total Depravity of man at the fall (I can kind of go along with them on this one)

U- Unconditional Election - (God arbitrarily selecting out the FEW instead of So-loving-the-WORLD). (Limited Grace)

L - Limited Atonement. Christ only died for the FEW of Matt 7 (if you hold to this "L") not "For OUR sins and also the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2. They actually have a good argument based on the Bible teaching on Atonement. But you have to reject God's Lev 16 Atonement model AND the fact that 1John 2:2 shouws is that it is the Atoning SACRIFICE is complete at the cross and THEN Heb 8-10 Christ goes to heaven as our High Priest in the Lev 16 "Atonement Model"

I - Irresistable Grace. When God selects one of the FEW they have no choice - they must be saved. Evangelism's appeal to the will to choose God has nothing at all to do with salvation.

P - Perseverance of the saints - (actually this is a phrase that comes from Rev 14 "HERE is the perseverance of the saints HERE ARE THEY that KEEP the Commandments of God") But they mean it as in "not backsliding". The error they promoter here under the guise of perseverance says that if you ever backslide you were never saved to begin with.

5 Pointers accept all the TULIP.
4 Pointers leave out perseverance
3 Ponters usuall go with TUP

I tend to agree with the 3 pointer most. Though

I agree with the "L" from the stand point of "What is completed when Atonement is completed" and the fact that "Atonement can not be completed for the lost in hell" - but they are wrong to ignore the 1John 2:2 fact that is was the "Atoning SACRIFICE" at the cross - and that was unlimited and they error in ignoring the High Priestly role of Christ described in Lev 16 and in Heb 7-10.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Where in the New Testament does it say: "Thou shalt keep the "The Ten Commandments?" Where does it specifically say: "Thou shalt keep the Sabbath Day?"
</font>[/QUOTE]First of all - congrats to Claudia for finally getting "someone" to respond to at least 1 of those NT texts on the Commandments

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3919/2.html#000029

They are overwhelmingly in favor of Christ the Creator's Ten Commandments!

In Christ,

Bob

 

**Thank You... Thank you**

I need a icon with a smiley face doing a curtsey or at least bowing

 

You have thrown in a red herring. You are the one straying from the OP which states:

So this has nothing to do with what other religions practice. The OP was specifically directed to the SDA's, and their practice of keeping the Sabbath and some of the other practices that they keep or practice.

Now, what unsupported assertions have I made. I went through Scripture. I gave you Scripture. Do you reject the Word of God and call it unsupported?

And then I backed up my assertion with Scripture and showed you how you do not have any case. Correct? I have answered you point by point.

Do they? Is there a command there to keep the Sabbath? Demonstrate it for me.

Remeber what 2Tim.2:15 says about "rightly dividing the word of truth. Try doing that first. When I see "all mankind coming to Christ (on earth) to worship Christ, then I will accept that the Sabbath is to be kept, but not until then. That is obviously talking about another time period, not now. It is speaking of the Millennial Kingdom, not now. That is a future event, not now. All mankind does not go up to Jesus and worship him, do they. Jesus is not even on this earth in bodily form, is he. How can you say that this verse applies to us today? You have grossly taken this verse out of its context to make it fit into your own pre-conceived ideas.

First it is called dispensationalism.
Second, you are the one with the problem.
As stated above you have to account "Christ the Creator's Holy Day applying to All MANKIND.
When and where does all mankind worship Christ? You have quite the imagination if you can see all mankind worshipping Christ right now. Do the Hindus, Muslims, the many cults, Buddhists, etc. all worship Christ right now? Does all mankind worship Christ right now? When will they worship Christ? It is at that time that the Sabbath will be reinstitued. Not now.
DHK

 

Context, Claudia; Context!
The context starting with Romans 13:1 was governmental law. Obey them which have authority over you. There is no reference to the Sabbath here. It is all in reference to the civil law which is based on the "Ten Commandments" such as American Law is (minus keeping the Sabbath). For example, we have laws against murder, against bearing false witness, against stealing, etc. They stem from what is known as "The Tem Commandments." These "Ten Commandments" were often posted in courtrooms until recently. But all knew that the Sabbath was not binding on any Christian. There is no hint in this passage that it is referring to the Sabbath. That is not what the context is about.
DHK

 

Interesting DHK,

Isaiah 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Does not imply one is to come together on the Sabbath Day only, but 'from one Sabbath to another.'

Also, 'from one new moon to another.'

Wonder how many of these Sabbath worship keepers are keeping the new moon worship as well? Probably much less.

The Psalmist wrote, 'This is the day that the Lord hath made, I will rejoice and be glad in it.' Daniel prayed 3 times a day. Many instances of worship throughout the scripture, but Isaiah 66 is the fascinating one. 'From new moon to new moon; from Sabbath to Sabbath.'

I do not think our worship was limited to just a certain day, but every day.

When our employee says 'You will work from Monday to Friday 7am to 3pm', do we just work on Monday 7am and Friday 3pm and lay off the rest of the week?

 

#1. Isaiah 66 states that it is in the "New Heavens and New Earth" - a quote that John borrows in Rev 21 saying "And I saw a New Heavens and a New Earth" --

But the "Salient" point is that NOT ONLY is this POST-CROSS it also has the SCOPE of "ALL MANKIND".

#2. You explicitly LIMITED Christ the Creator's only Holy Day - is own Memorial of Creation to "Jews only" -- there is no way to reconcile your "Jews only" vs "THE ALL MANKIND" scope that Isaiah shows in Isaiah 66.

OBviously Isaiah KNEW about JEWS and he KNEW that ALL MANKIND was a scope LARGER than "Jews only". Your "Jews only" statements about how limited Christ's own Holy Day is - fails in this post-cross NEW Earth case.

But just as devasting is the case from Mark 2:27 where Christ references the SIXth day of Creation where MAN is MADE and also the Seventh-day of Creation week where Christ the Creator's own Holy Day is MADE. "The SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND and not MANKIND for the Sabbath" Mark 2:27.

Here "again" the all mankind scope is fully stated since on day 7 of creation week the only ones FOR WHOM the Sabbath was made were ALL MANKIND at the time!

In Christ,

Bob

 

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So my question is this how do you SDA decide which OT laws to keep and which to throw away. I ask because you don't eat Pork which is not a 10 Commandment.
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First of all - both SDAs and non-SDAs on this board have shown their choice to honor and yield to God's Ten Commandments. The arguments opposing the Tne commandments on these pages have been of the form "IF you allow the Ten Commandments that we find in Christ's Word in Exodus then you are going down a slippery slope and might have to honor other parts of God's word as well so don't get tricked into showing honor and respect for the continued authority of the Ten Commandments."

My argument is that in arguing FOR the Ten Commandments we do not have a unique case against SDAs.

Further in arguing that IF you KEEP the Ten then you might also have to pay attention to other parts of God's Word in the OT -- those opposing the SDAs here have ALSO not isolated SDAs as was the intent in the OP.

But if the issue of Lev 11 is being raised - as you point out- then I agree that the list narrows to SDAs primarily as we do not reject Gods Word in Lev 11 regarding the fact that our Creator God said that "puppies kittens, bats, rats and slugs" are not "for food" for people.

HOWEVER EVEN in that case - it is NOT SDAs that bring out that point - it is the non-SDAs that have no resect for God's Ten Commandments. THEY are the ones that keep bringing that topic up AS IF they need to have this reminder. Then they pretend that SDAs are unique in that WE keep bringing up Lev 11 - when in fact we have not been the ones raising that subject (typically) on this board.


We are happy to admit that in Lev 11 we find the fact that our Creator God said that "puppies kittens, bats, rats and slugs" are not "for food" for people -- but only when someone else brings it up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Not only does this show that the SABBATH was MADE for MANKIND it also shows us that Jesue regarded the LORD's DAY to be Sabbath!

What is more Jesus shows that the Sabbath day of Rest and worship as MADE on the Seventh-day Gen 2:3 was a BLESSING to MANKIND. As was the other institution God gave MANKIND in Eden - Marriage.

"For this purpose shall a man leave his home..."

This is the argument that Adventists make about the BLESSING of the Sabbath and it is the argument non-SDAs make who also keep Christ the Creator's Holy Day.

Here again you do the victory dance without actually showing anything to win the case.

The BLESSING of the Sabbath has been THE POINT from the SDA and non-SDA pro-Sabbath POV since day one!!

Furthermore we are no more a SLAVE to it than we are a SLAVE to marriage!

(unless you consider the prohibition against adultery to be an example of SLAVERY)

Your argument is that we are SLAVES if we are obligated to honor what Christ our Creator "MADE HOLY". That is like saying we are SLAVES to marriage if we are obligated to honor and respect it!!

What kind of logic are you using here DHK?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Speaking of the NEW heavens and New Earth Isaiah writes that God says --

Is 66 "FROM Sabbath TO Sabbath shall all mankind COME BEFORE ME to Worship".

The ALL mankind scope is "impossible to miss".

And for the PRIMARY audience - the Jews reading the words of Isaiah- the meaning of "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before me to WORSHIP" the meaning and intent was extremely CLEAR and obvious.

Indeed - if we could be allowed to spin and eisegete this text AWAY from the obvious meaning it had for Isaiah's PRIMARY intended reader - his contemporaries - then maybe such an imaginative story could be used to spin it just as you say.

But as long as we have to go by the rule of "sola scriptura" and have to allow Exegesis as the model for interpretation -- we can not go down that road!

In Christ,

Bob

 

DHK,

"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed." Exodus 31:16, 17.

Note: "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Galations 3:29. Israel or Jacob as he was originally named, was Abraham's grandson or Abraham's seed. Therefore the children of Israel were Abraham's seed (John 8:37), and if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed or children of Israel.

 

I have shown in detail that what you tried with Isaiah 66 did not stand up to close review as compared to the text itself since it leaves us with "ALL MANKIND coming before God to worship FROM Sabbath to Sabbath" -- nor did your spin of Mark 2 work since it leaves us with "The SABBATH MADE FOR MANKIND".

Your arguments fail - and then you "declare success anyway". It is hard to imagine WHAT system could not lend itself to that kind of "defense".

In Christ,

Bob

 

you know, we true protestants do have Martin Luther on our side.. Luther says the Catholics changed the Sabbath to sunday and called it the Lord's day..

"They allege the Sabbath changed into Sunday, the Lord's day, contrary to the Decalogue, as it appear, neither is there any example more boasted of than the changing of the Sabbath day. Great, they say, is the power and authority of the church, since it dispensed with one of the Ten Commandments." Martin Luther, Augsburg Confession of Faith, art. 28.

At least Martin Luther knew that mattered and was a bad thing!