SDA Hypocrisy?

What DHK is unwilling to carefully consider is that the entire OBJECT of the keeping of the 10 Commandment Law AND the Sabbath that is right in the center of it, was not only for the benefit of the Jews but also to give light to the surrounding nations.... the Muslims, the Hindus and everyone else.


Deut:4:6: Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.


But the Jews had PERVERTED the meaning of the Sabbath and added all their own restrictions and left out the love of God….. thus, they wouldn’t even heal on the Sabbath but would allow people to suffer… and in doing so became a body of DARKNESS to the nations. Jesus came and set the Sabbath and the entire Law of God in its proper setting not only for the sake of the Jews but for all MANKIND to see.

The entire OBJECT of “The Church” is to give light to THE WORLD.
Matthew 28:
19: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20: Teaching THEM to observe all things whatsoever I have COMMANDED you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Who do we think “Them” refers to? Muslims, Hindus, and others…. People who need to HEAR the Gospel message, and people who need to HEAR and be taught “Whatsoever Jesus had COMMANDED” the Jews.

So YES Jesus was “talking” to the Jews when He said the Sabbath was made for MAN… but that’s beside the point who He was “talking” to.

If we go TEACHING MAN to break the Sabbath, what good are we???

Matthew 5
13: Ye are the salt of the earth : but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14: Ye are the light of the world . A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15: Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16: Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach MEN so , he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

The Pharisees hoarded the light to themselves and even perverted the light. They forgot that they were supposed to keep the Commandments and the Sabbath as an object lesson to the rest of the world! It was MEANT to show the world God's loving character. Those who think it was only for the Jews are very short-sighted.

Thats why Jesus came and showed how the Sabbath WAS MEANT to be kept... you dont claim to love your neighbor and leave them wounded and lying on the side of the road because its the Sabbath. Love God and Love thy neighbor was the very foundation of the Law.

Those who today claim Jesus BROKE the Sabbath are in reality taking the same position as the Pharisees. The Sabbath was made FOR MAN and not man for the Sabbath.

[ May 25, 2006, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

Sorry to interefere without reading all the posts here.
Sabbath was the shadow of Jesus Christ as we read Mark 2:26-27, and Heb 4:1, 4:6-11, which was important until Siloh comes ( Gen 49:10)

We must strive to enter the Rest of Christ as Heb 4.

After we are saved, we should follow Holy Spirit, not the Law.
Question is whether Holy Spirit works in contradiction to the Law? Nope!
But sometimes we should note that what God is doing is different from human understandings, from the Law as we notice Jesus healed the people on the Sabbath, did good things on Sabbath, accomplishing the requirements of the Law in a better way.
To the true believers, all the days of the week are the Sabbath throughout the lifetime and for Eternity. On such bases, if anyone wants to stick to Sabbath or not, it doesn't matter very much as in Romans 14:5-6.

Sabbath keeping is not the matter of Hypocrisy, but the matter of Legalism.

 

John 5:18
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath , but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

John 9:16
16 Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.


Did Jesus keep the Sabbath in human eyes?

 

Can we think about these?
Gal 3:
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

 

Mt:12:10: And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.

Mt:12:12: How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.

Jesus never broke the Sabbath Commandment. Jesus came to show how it was supposed to be kept.

Yes they ACCUSED Him of breaking the Sabbath but Jesus clearly said their accusations were false.


Jesus CORRECTED the religious leaders who accused Him of breaking the Sabbath... more than once.
What normally was considered to be unlawful, on the Sabbath was lawful if they were doing it in the service of God. For instance, if a preacher is on his way to go give a sermon and normally it is unlawful to stop and get gas, well then in this instance it becomes lawful because he is in the service of God. MANKIND is considered precious to God, you dont stop everything on Sabbath for no good reason and allow people to die or stop eating when you need food, etc...

I cannot see why this concept seems so difficult for people to understand? Jesus said "which of you convicteth Me of sin?" well how about you, do you accuse Jesus of sinning, breaking the commandments? Our propitation for sin? is a sinner Himself? Heb:4:15: For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Mark 2
24: And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25: And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26: How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27: And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath

 

Romans 14 had absolutely nothing to do with the 7th day Sabbath. The entire chapter was about judging. There were yearly feast days of the ceremonial law. Jewish Christians were judging the gentile Christians. Paul simply said "stop judging one another, the ceremonial law is no longer binding"

Secondly, the Bible plainly tells us we must keep the commandments over and over and over again.

Rom:6:2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom:6:15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom:2:13: For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


1Jn:2:3: And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn:2:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn:3:22: And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jn:3:24: And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jn:5:2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

1Jn:5:3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jn:1:6: And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

WHERE people get this idea that somehow Hebrews chapter 4 does away with the 7th Day Sabbath is BEYOND ME!

Hebrews 4:
4: For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5: And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8: For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9: There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10: For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

So much for OSAS

 

Wrong again.

"Bob" sees exactly what Matthew Henry, D.L.Moody, Albert Barnes and others see clearly in Mark 2 "THe Sabbath was MADE FOR MANKIND and not MANKIND MADE FOR THE SABBATH" does not mean "SABBATH WAS MADE FOR JEWS ONLY".

Obviously the text of Mark 2 is used in a "sola scriptura" format - appealing to the "only reference we have in all of scripture to the MAKING OF MAN" which is in Genesis 1.

By ignoring the sola scriptura model here - and ignoring the context in Mark 2 and ignoring the Bible scholars listed above (some of whom EVEN DHK quotes to make his points in 1Cor 16) we can finally eisegete as DHK hopes.

But until one is willing to go to that extreme...

What is instructive DHK is that in the "insert" you insist on making to the text for the term used "For MANKIND" as in "Let us MAKE MANKIND in our own image" (A statement MOSES writes when HIS audience is ISRAEL and yet it STILL MEANS - MANKIND) -- seeks to "wrench" this down to "MAKE JEW" so that you have in Mark 2 "The SAbbath was MADE for JEWs" --

But then you ALSO INSERT the notion "This is a CHANGE" in Mark 2 such that those identified by "MAN" in Christ's Words are NO LONGER to Honor HIS Creation Sabbath memorial - YEARS BEFORE the Cross!!

How instructive that the VERY ONES you claim it is MADE FOR are (in your words) being told to be in rebellion against what was MADE for THEM!

And this - YEARS BEFORE - the cross.

Your argument fails in Mark 2.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Totally false.

God makes the distinction repeatedly.

"The TEN Commandments" are never called "The ZILLION commandments".

The TEN Comamdments identified AS A UNIT are given the the name IN the Bible - "The TEN Commandments" AND GOD SAID of those TEN WORDS "AND HE ADDED NO MORE" Deut 5.

Making up the idea that this unit does not exist as such or is blended indistinguishably into the text - is total "fantasy".

Impressively - God places THE UNIT OF TEN - in the ark with the rest of scripture - OUTSIDE the ark.

HE decides on that distinction - no "man".
</font>[/QUOTE]That's because, as I've just said, The Ten were the SUMMARY of the whole law. If you take "and he added NO MORE" they way you are suggesting, then the annual feasts, circumcision, dietary laws, etc. were NEVER valid, and we have to explain why they're in there at all. None of that says that the Ten were universal for all. They themselves were summed up in the TWO commandments, as were the Seven commandments expected from the rest of the world. God never judged non-israelites for not keeping the sabbath.

And circumcision was before Exodus and required no sacrifice either.

To assume that this equates a command for all men of all time is not a form of exegesis.

 

Deuteronomy 4:6 Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. (KJV)

Funny, I don't see "Surrounding" in the text or the Hebrew... Did Claudia add to Scripture?

Strong's

H5971
עם
‛am
am
From H6004; a people (as a congregated unit); specifically a tribe (as those of Israel); hence (collectively) troops or attendants; figuratively a flock: - folk, men, nation, people.

Hmmmm Maybe Moses was talking about being a Testimony to Ones own people...

Like wearing phylacteries?

And, not as Clauida says as a witness to all the heathen nations surrounding them...

After all God had no interest in the Heathen Nations at that time. Except to wipe them out...

So, why witness to them?

SMM

 

I don't know what kind of text that is I was trying to copy to quote from, after "who do we think", but it comes out as nothing both at the end of the last post and by itself, and it completely blanks out the preview. But anyway:

(Who do we think "them" were; Israel supposed to be light to the nations)

That's the way it was originally supposed to be, but since Israel did not keep up their end of the Covenant, God turned to a totally new covenant with a totally spiritual nation, and a totally spiritual "sign".

(Jesus tells us to command evrything that He commanded the Jews)

If the "commanding" you're referring to was before the Cross, then that would include all the other laws as well.

("teaching man to break the sabbath...").

We're not teaching anyone to "break" it, if God did not include it in the new covenant.

(Romans 14 is annual feasts only; we are told over and over to keep the commandments)

You still have not shown that the weekly sabbath was excluded from the "days" Paul was discussing. All of the days were "commandments". No one's arguing against "commandments"; the debate is to which ones continue in the letter.

(Where do we get idea Hebrews 4 does away with sabbath)
That passage is giving us the SPIRITUAL application of the sabbath. Insteas of physical "work" on a particular day of the week, it is resting from our "workS".

 

Exodus 31:16-17 indicates that Shabbat(keeping the sabbath) exists as a covenant between God and the Jewish people:

"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe throughout their generations for a perpetual covenant."

 

It has to be "noted" that ISRAEL (not simply "Jews" )were at Sinai and THEY TOO are "a member of mankind".

Isaiah 66 "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship" speaking of the NEW heavens and NEW earth of Rev 21:1-4.

Mark 2: 27 the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND and NOT mankind MADE for the Sabbath".

HENCE there is "no way to ABOLISH" Christ our Creator God's Word in Exodus 20:8-11 (either in the past or in the future) that says Sabbath is a MEMORIAL of His OWN Creative act in MAKIND "MANKIND"! It points us DIRECTLY to the Genesis 2:3 "fact".

Those whose man-made traditions "need" us to "gloss over" those Bible details in favor of more eisegetically based 'notions' that would say "MAN" is just "JEWS" in Mark 2 - will simply choose to tell us to ignore God's Word in Exodus 20, - they appear to be willing to "pursue any length" to ignore the obvious point of Mark 2:27 EVEN though this is the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

DHK will "tell us to read Albert Barnes when it comes to 1Cor 16 - but then when it comes to DHK's discredited interpretation of Mark 2 he insists on glossing over and ignoring the link between "MAKING MAN" in Gen 2:3 and "the MAKING Of MANKIND" mentioned in Mark 2, IGNORE the scholarship of Adam Clarke, Matthew Henry, Albert Barnes, D.L Moody and the others listed here http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3919/19.html?

He appears to be willing to "pursue any length" to ignore the obvious point of Mark 2:27 EVEN though this is the words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

How can tradition have such a strong hold on these guys?

And what about the attempt to tell us that "Jews are being asked in Mark 2 to start abolishing the Creator's Sabbath YEARS before the cross" EVEN while claiming "the Sabbath was MADE FOR the Jews"??? Is there any more confused and defunct argument than this one they present to us?

If so - what?

In Christ,

Bob

 

After glossing over and ignoring every salient point made on the page - DHK "circles back to"...

A more failed argument could hardly be imagined!

How is "that" supposed to stand against the devastating argument already made here "sola scriptura" AND also from sound Bible scholarship like Albert Barnes on Mark 2??

How is "that failed position" to stand against the obvious point already made here that when Moses WROTE that "GOD MADE MANKIND" in His own image (Gen 1) he was writing to HEBREWS and did NOT MEAN "God made HEBREWS-ONLY in God's image"!!

The failed tactic of simply circling back to a previous point and glossing over all the salient points in the argument made in response - is what you might expect of an "argument from tradition" but not of "sola scriptura".

None of the arguments made in favor of tradition has held up so far WHEN one is willing to review and discuss them openly!

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here DHK tries to convince us that "Sabbath is fully applicable to Jews" but no one else. The "he who is guilyt of one is guilty of all" statement of God in James 2 should NOT be applied to Christ the Creator's Commandment according to DHK - unless you are a Jew. Jews "alone" were called to obey and honor Christ the Creator's command that "ALL MANKIND" observe "FROM SABBATH TO SABBATH" in the New Earth -- see Isaiah 66.

The Sabbath "MADE FOR MAN" as Christ said in Mark 2:27

So Christ's perfect fulfillment ministry of the LAW STARTS in DHK's mind by telling us "MAN" is "JEWS ONLY" and ONLY they are supposed to Honor Christ the Creator's Holy Day!

In the above text DHK argues that AT the START of Christ's ministry - Christ is urging JEWS to "BREAK the Sabbath".

Without any reference to the cross, or the new covenant, or perfectly "fulfilling" the requirement - DHK wants us to think of Christ as STARTING His ministry by telling Jews to BREAK God's Law - in this case "the Ten Commandments" - (For if you transgress one you transgress them all - says James).

This of course is something Christ Himself denies.

As in all cases - my argument is being made "sola scriptura" -- DHK's "BREAK the Sabbath" argument is made sola-tradition. He argues the JEWS are right in THEIR view of Scripture so Christ simply argues that Jews should start breaking the Sabbath!

How "instructive".

Here DHK argues that when we hear God the Son speak in Gen 1 and in Exodus 20 we should NOT think of the scripture as the work of God – or the Word of God or as GOD speaking – but MOSES is speaking in Exodus 20 – vs CHRIST (God the Son) speaking in John 14. Using that form of eisegesis DHK gets us to view the Word of Exodus 20 spoken By God as “The Word of Moses” and that is contrasted to the actual words of Christ in John 14 AS IF Christ’s mission was to abolish the scriptures and contradict them with HIS WORD in the Gospels.

How instructive for the reader..

But Christ claimed that "HIS words are the words of the FAther" and "HE does NOT speak of His own - but takes that which the FAther says and tells us".

Further we know that from day one - from Genesis 1 it is God the Son - CHRIST that is shown to be "The Creator" according John 1:1-4. Christ is in no way STARTING by contrasting/contradicting scripture contrary to DHK's position above.

[ May 25, 2006, 11:26 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

So "why include links to DHK's convoluted arguments" on this thread?" -- you ask.

(see the post above -- http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3919/22.html#000316)

Why indeed...

I do it because I think that post above shows just how self-conflicted and contradictory the arguments "for tradition over scripture" can be.

It is a classic example!

How much more "Biblically sound" by comparison to DHK's many turns -- is the postion of Adam Clarke, Albert Barnes, D.L.Moody and others quoted here!

http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3919/19.html?

These are men that DHK HIMSELF has asked us to look at (for example in his views on 1Cor 16) when it comes to the Sabbath. YET when we quote them here on Mark 2:27 DHK "finds them inconvenient". He glosses over the devastating arguments made against his convoluted and self-conflicted positions taken here - and then wants to pretend that the whole thing is "Bob's problem" with Hindus vs Jews!

How tragic!

Moses is writing to Israel in Gen 1 when HE says (When GOD says THROUGH Moses) that MAN was MADE by God "Let us MAKE MAN in our own image" Gen 1.

DHK insists that if he is writing to Israel in Gen 1 - then "God only made Israel" when He says "Let us make man" and just so in Mark 2 "the Sabbath was MADE for MAN and not MAN MADE for the SABBATH" must speak only of the "MAKING of JEWS" according to DHK since Christ is speaking of JEWS as he says "MAN was not MADE for the SABBATH" we must then eisegete "Jews were not MADE for the Sabbath"

Again -- "how tragic". What lengths DHK has gone to in his arguments!

In Christ,

Bob

 

If one is depending on keeping the sabbath day only on Saturday for their salvation, a word of caution may be in order.

Keep it perfectly or you are lost.

 

The point in the posts given here is that "Christ said" the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" in Mark 2:27.

In Isaiah 66 Christ said that in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

Do we "honor our parents" FOR Salvation? (To EARN Salvation??) Hopefully those that choose to respect and honor God's Word in that regard do not HAVE TO DO IT only by thinking "this is how I EARN salvation".

The same would be true of all the Ten Commandments - obviously.

In Christ,

Bob