Featured Who is Jesus Christ's true church?

So the use of incense and candles is not inherently pagan? Is that right?

 

You have demonstrated the historical evidence for the problems with the Protestant doctrine of sola Scriptura. Not only is it unbiblical, but it is also demonstrably unworkable. We know from history that when the Protestant religions first started, they rapidly began dividing because this doctrine they built their religion around (sola Scriptura) is not able to resolve any doctrinal disagreements. Thus by the end of the 16th century (the century in which the Protestant religions began), there were already nearly 300 different sects. Because Protestantism does not have a living authority to resolve exegetical disagreements, the fruit of this doctrine has been the continual division with the ultimate authority resting not in the Scriptures alone to decide what is or is not the faith, but rather in the subjective interpretation of the Scriptures by each individual adherent.

Your example of Luther and Zwingli is a great demonstration. Luther nearly came to blows with Zwingli and Oecolampadius at the Marburg Colloquy when each man tried to prove his position on the Eucharist using Scripture alone. In the irony of all ironies, Zwingli resorted to using St. Augustine against the Augustinian!

 

The use of incense cannot be inherently pagan, because according to Revelation it is used in heaven.

 

I believe the churches as seven congregations and has been in different states down through the centuries....

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul. Foxes book of Martyrs has the persecutions as ten.
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages.
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first buy a mansion off ministry.

I would say the churches were born in the age, and continue to this day. I would also believe that the church age is about ready to come to an end, the books sealed, and the rapture of the church is at hand. I have given this my best presentation...

And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.- Matthew 24:12

Quality Christian conference and revival helps sanctify the soul, as we don't see much of this anymore, I would look for men's hearts to continue the trek from hot, to lukewarm, to cold. I gave the E/c2 formula to try to separate the mass, the thinking, and the spirituality (E-Warmth, love, motivation, C2-Faith, hope, charity, joy).

Thoughts from the heart! Was this thinking from God? Are we seeing the trek from hot, to lukewarm, to cold? Has any in this site attended quality Christian conference where they felt, in the words of John Wesley after hearing a sermon quoting Luther, their hearts warmed by the love of God? I remember attending quality Christian conference and revival as a teenager and leaving with a sense of being clean and spiritually refreshed. Well... This is my presentation! Whether accepted or rejected I do not know. But I gave it my best shot.

 

Any idea why there is no evidence of any Evangelicals in those locations in antiquity?

For example..

---> Laodicea on the Lycus | Turkish Archaeological News

---> Laodicea Columns Reveal the Grandeur of an Early Christian Center

 

These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 2:1

The Laodicean church spoken in Revelation was born with the ministry of DL Moody and continues to this day. The Laodicea church in Turkey was a Christian church in its time, but not the one referred to in the book of Revelation. Asia is still in existence, but the Asia in Revelation is the placement of the churches in its time. If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado that the Lord would hold such churches in his right hand?

 

Uhh...FYI...the book of Revelation was written in approximately 95 A.D.

Mr. D.L. Moody was born in the year 1837 A.D.


See a problem with your assertion?

 

I think that Christ Jesus has the ability to see in the future... In which... That is why the book of Revelation was written...

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass.... -Revelation 1:1

And oh... By the way.... This may seem like a shocker... But the church did not come off Noah's Ark Seven Day Adventist!

 

Now I’m really confused. So now you are arguing Jesus Christ went into mid 19th century Chicago and transported D.L. Moody back in time to Turkey in 95 A.D.?

Did he use a DeLorean?

 

Because the evangelicals had to hide from the orthodox Christians and had their services in secret in their homes. Come on, there were Baptist congregations all over the place don't you know. Now stop be silly and get with the program!

 

The seven churches are in metaphor. As you obviously do not know what a metaphor is I will help you along... The bible, especially Revelation, is written with much metaphor. I cannot believe one can study Revelation, and the bible, and see the same perspective as another fellow believer. You will agree and disagree on the interpretation of different passages. If a pastor prepares a message and does so in prayer and in council of the Holy Spirit it will bless the ears and hearts of those listening. If someone goes to interpret scriptural prophecy and does so in the flesh such interpretation will not go over with blessing. And to give example....

John Bunyan was a great writer in metaphors/parables and he explains the use of them in his "The Barren Fig Tree" work (http://www.chapellib.../bun-barren.pdf):

6 He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it:
9 And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down. - Luke 13:6-9

In parables there are two things to be taken notice of, and to be inquired into of them that read.

First, The metaphors made use of.
Second, The doctrine or mysteries couched under such metaphors.

The metaphors in this parable are,
1. A certain man;
2. A vineyard;
3. A fig-tree, barren or fruitless;
4. A dresser;
5. Three years;
6. Digging and dunging, &c.

The doctrine, or mystery, couched under these words is to show us what is like to become of a fruitless or formal professor. For...

1. By the man in the parable is meant God the Father.
2. By the vineyard, his church.
3. By the fig-tree, a professor.
4. By the dresser, the Lord Jesus.
5. By the fig-tree’s barrenness, the professor's fruitlessness.
6. By the three years, the patience of God that for a time he extendeth to barren professors.
7. This calling to the dresser of the vineyard to cut it down, is to show the outcries of justice against fruitless professors.
8. The dresser's interceding is to show how the Lord Jesus steps in, and takes hold of the head of his Father's axe, to stop, or at least to defer, the present execution of a barren fig-tree.
9. The dresser's desire to try to make the fig-tree fruitful, is to show you how unwilling he is that even a barren fig-tree should yet be barren, and perish.
10. His digging about it, and dunging of it, is to show his willingness to apply gospel helps to this barren professor, if haply he may be fruitful.
11. The supposition that the fig-tree may yet continue fruitless, is to show, that when Christ Jesus hath done all, there are some professors will abide barren and fruitless.
12. The determination upon this supposition, at last to cut it down, is a certain prediction of such professor’s unavoidable and eternal damnation.

But to take this parable into pieces, and to discourse more particularly, though with all brevity, upon all the parts thereof. "A certain MAN had a fig-tree planted in his vineyard." The MAN, I told you, is to present us with God the Father; by which similitude he is often set out in the New Testament. Observe then, that it is no new thing, if you find in God's church barren fig-trees, fruitless professors; even as here you see is a tree, a fruitless tree, a fruitless fig-tree in the vineyard.

Fruit is not so easily brought forth as a profession is got into; it is easy for a man to clothe himself with a fair show in the flesh, to word it, and say, Be thou warmed and filled with the best. It is no hard thing to do these with other things; but to be fruitful, to bring forth fruit to God, this doth not every tree, no not every fig-tree that stands in the vineyard of God. Those words also, "Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh away," assert the same thing. There are branches in Christ, in Christ's body mystical, which is his church, his vineyard, that bear not fruit, wherefore the hand of God is to take them away: I looked for grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes, that is, no fruit at all that was acceptable with God (Isaiah 5:4). Again, Israel is an empty vine, he bringeth forth fruit unto himself, none to God; he is without fruit to God (Hosea 10:1). All these, with many more, show us the truth of the observation, and that God’s church may be cumbered with fruitless fig-trees, with barren professors.

 

I provided links detailing the archeological evidence of the churches actually existing in antiquity. Thus your position that they were just metaphors is demonstrably erroneous.

Facts are stubborn things.

 

Metaphors... The churches as archeological evidence contains no historical evidence as these were the churches the Lord Jesus was referring to.

 

He may need to rethink his approach to comparative religion.

 

Haaaaaa! That is really funny. Do you realize what you are saying here? The historical evidence are the churches themselves! You guys have got to keep coming up with the wildest claims to justify your sects existence.

 

The Son of the living God who is both Lord and Christ is building His church, Matthew 16:18, ". . . I will build my church; . . . " Now one can make any claims they want. Jesus knows His own. Matthew 7:21-23. Romans 8:9. John 10:27-28.

 

All hail the prophetess Ellen White!