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Featured How is the Wrath Of the Father Appeased if Not PST Atonement?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Yeshua1, May 6, 2020.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I have read with those against Pst do indeed deny God has placed his wrath upon Jesus, as that would be not fair in their mind to have Jesus as an innocent party taking undeserved wrath!
     
    #41 Yeshua1, May 9, 2020
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are right.

    The Christus Victor does not deny Christ as sin bearer. It is quite the opposite (it views Christ as sharing our infirmity and bearing our sin from the Incarnation until the Cross when He cried "it is finished" and committed His Spirit to the Father). But it is a different understanding than PSA.
     
    #42 JonC, May 9, 2020
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe the cased should be argued for the Christus Victor view that PSA is merely a subset of that view. Not that PSA is need be seen as wrong. Otherwise any explicit points of disagreement must be made clear. Or if no Scripture truth is being denied or disallowed by either presentation.
     
    #43 37818, May 9, 2020
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    To an extent I think so (or at least as penal substitution aspects).

    The main difference IMO is that Christus Victor always views Christ as dying under the powers of sin and death and that death unjust but in accordance to God's will (hence God's vindication and Christ's victory) where PSA views that suffering and death by God Himself and justly so.
     
    #44 JonC, May 9, 2020
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Well that would be a point that is anti-Biblcial, John 1:3, John 10:18, ". . . No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. . . ."
     
    #45 37818, May 9, 2020
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He bore our sins, but did not face the judgement against those sins as in experiencing divine wrath of God, that is your view, correct?
     
    #46 Yeshua1, May 9, 2020
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those holiding to that view would not agree, as they see the necessity of jesus taking the very wrath of God as being barbaric, cruel God punishing the innocent Righteous One etc!
     
    #47 Yeshua1, May 9, 2020
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some see it as Jesus as the new israel being put to death by Imperial Rome as he took the wrath of man, but not of God!
     
    #48 Yeshua1, May 9, 2020
  9. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    No. He was forsaken for a space of time by His Father on the cross, Psalms 22:1, Mark 15:34. And that death, Isaiah 53:10, Isaiah 53:12, Romans 5:8 was completed on the cross, John 19:28 prior to His physcial death, John 19:30, Luke 23:46, his soul having been restored.
     
    #49 37818, May 9, 2020
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    #50 Yeshua1, May 9, 2020
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I probably need to be more specific. It is not anti- Biblical, we are just assuming different things.

    Christus Victor views Christ as submitting to the will of the Father and willingly laying down His own life to become a curse for us, it bear our sins in His flesh, by willingly suffering and dying under the powers of sin and death and at the hands of wicked man.
     
    #51 JonC, May 9, 2020
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    But that submission is not what made the atonement. As it is written, ". . which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. . . ." 1 Corinthians 1:7-8. The victory was Christ's making (John 1:3). So in John 11:47-53, ". . . Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles. If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation. And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nationn; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. Then from that day forth they took counsel together for to put him to death. . . ."
    John 12:32-33, ". . . And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die. . . ."

    But how it was brought about.
     
    #52 37818, May 9, 2020
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Peter said much the same (the Jews delivered Christ to suffer and die at the hands of wicked men, but this was in accordance with God's predetermined plan).

    Christus Victor does not dispute that it was God's predetermined plan, His will (that it pleased God to "crush" Him).

    But I think both sides tend to view the other a bit more apart from Scripture than they really are.
     
    #53 JonC, May 9, 2020
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    There are two hows. One are the events used. And the other is the how the atonement was paid.
     
    #54 37818, May 9, 2020
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    @JonC,
    The victory is a result of the atonment. That result is not an atonement.
     
    #55 37818, May 9, 2020
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree, But we probably should define what we mean by "atonement" as it can be a loaded word.
     
    #56 JonC, May 9, 2020
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    #57 37818, May 9, 2020
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. But "atonement" is not a "biblical" word (it is a 16th century word conveying unity or reconciliation). So it can be a loaded term. The "biblical" word is reconciliation. The cross was God reconciling mankind to Himself, so men need to be reconciled to God.
     
    #58 JonC, May 9, 2020
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  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    How, in your view, is sin punished under the Christus Victor theory?
     
    #59 Martin Marprelate, May 9, 2020
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    In my view "sins" cannot be punished except the sinner (the one who committed the sin) be punished.

    We all experience the wages of sin. But because of Christ all judgment is given to the Son (the Father judges no one but all judgment is given to the Son). The final judgment is Christ-centered. Those not "in Christ" are condemned because the Light has come into the world and they reject the Light because their deeds are evil. Those who remain in their sins are condemned and experience the "Second Death". But there is no condemnation in Christ.

    That is my belief, anyway.

    In your view, how is the Cross "apart from the law"?
     
    #60 JonC, May 9, 2020
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