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Armianism - in Dr Pickerings translation notes.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, May 22, 2020.

  1. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Reading Dr. Pickering's translation notes I found he believes one who is born again must maintain that relationship. Personally I am of the view that it is God who maintains our forgiveness, Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17. Those of you who would agree with Dr. Pickering are the ones I would like to discuss his interpretatioins with.
     
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  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    was he saying that those saved by the Grace of God need to keep holding on to their faith to stay saved?
     
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Pick a reference and let's read one of his notes, if there is a note for the text in question.
     
  4. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Source?
     
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  6. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member
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    In the old Methodist movement they could sense when the Christ came shinning through. If they could not sense the wonderful Christian character in the experience they would tell you to come back tomorrow night (as they were often in conference or revival)... And smile a little as they said it. The Apostle Paul apparently put a lot of work getting the Christ formed inside the Galatians... And then he had to go through all of that the second time!

    My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you...- Galatians 4:19
     
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the link.
    I went to Romans 1 on page 318 and right away, here is what is stated in his very first note under the text:

    " a All human beings are slaves—we are born that way, live that way, die that way. As the Lord Jesus said, “whoever commits sin is a slave of sin... if the Son makes you free you will be free indeed” (John 8:34,36). Sovereign Jesus offers us a choice of owner: the only way to escape slavery to sin is to become a slave of Jesus Christ".

    I notice immediately that he gives no Scripture to show that men have been given the choice of whether to accept or reject Christ as Saviour.


    On page 324 note H for Romans 3:22:

    "That righteousness is available to all, but is only applied to those who believe."

    No Scripture given to show the reader how he arrives at that conclusion.
    To me, this is fairly standard practice by those who hold to the "salvation is potential for all men but sure for none unless they believe on Christ" position.:(


    Page 324 note J for Romans 325:

    " Without the shedding of blood there is no remission” (Hebrews 9:22). “When I see the blood, I will pass over you” (Exodus 12:13, 22-23). “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!” (John 1:29). 1 Peter 1:18-20 states that the Lamb, with His blood shed, was so foreknown before the founda-tion of the world. All the animal blood shed in the Old Testament only covered sin; it did not pay for it. All those sacrifices looked forward to Christ’s perfect sacrifice. But all of that was only validated by the death of God’s Lamb. So as verse 25 here states, the true propitiation is now available “through the faith in His blood”. This propitiation also benefits the Old Testament saints."


    Again, no Scripture given to show the reader how he arrives at that understanding of it.


    Instead of Christ's blood actually cleansing the believer and making peace with God at the cross ( Colossians 1:20 ), God having forgiven them of all trespasses and blotting out the handwriting of ordinances which were against them and nailing those to His cross ( Colossians 2:13-14 ), the believer actually being reconciled by the death of His Son ( Romans 5:10 ), and the believer actually being redeemed from the curse of the Law ( Galatians 3:13 ) before they were born and when they were dead in trespasses and sins, Dr. Pickering believes that these things are "potential", and can only be gained by believing on Christ.

    Instead of propitiation ( appeasement of God's wrath ) being a sure thing and their belief of Christ as Saviour the evidence ( Hebrews 11:1 ) of God's work on the cross for them even when they were dead in trespasses and sins, the believer is told that their appeasement is based on their belief and faith.

    Faith and belief therefore become the means to salvation, and not the blessed by-product ( Hebrews 11:1, Philippians 1:29, Ephesians 2:8 ) of God saving someone.
     
    #7 Dave G, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  8. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Note B on page 335:

    " b See Exodus 9:16. If you check the record, Pharaoh hardened his own heart the first five times; after that God did the hardening."


    If the discerning reader checks the record, God told Moses that He would harden Pharoah's heart in Exodus 4:21:

    " And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go."

    "I will harden his heart, so that he shall not let the people go."

    That was the express purpose of God hardening Pharoah's heart...
    So that Pharoah would not let the people go.
    Again the text in Exodus 7:3 states:

    " And I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
    4 But Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you, that I may lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth mine armies, [and] my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments."


    "But Pharoah shall not hearken ( listen ) to you, so that I may lay my hand upon Egypt..."
    The purpose of Pharoah not listening to Moses was so that the Lord would lay His hand upon Egypt and bring forth God's armies...His people the children of Israel.
    Then in Exodus 7:13-14, He does it:

    "
    And he hardened Pharaoh’s heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.
    14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh’s heart [is] hardened, he refuseth to let the people go."


    Dr. Pickering misses the significance of this first hardening, and "defaults" to Pharoah first hardening his own heart against God, and then God judiciously hardening Pharoah's heart in return.
    The text says that God first hardened Pharoah's heart a full 2 chapters before Dr. Pickering's observation in Exodus 9.

    When I re-read Exodus chapters 4 through 9 carefully I see this:

    The first time Pharoah is said to harden his own heart is in Exodus 8:15.
    The second time is in Exodus 8:32.
    The third time is in Exodus 9:34.


    In all other places the text either says that "the Lord hardened" it, or that "Pharoah's heart was hardened."
    From my own reserach, there are no other times that the text explicitly states that "Pharoah hardened his heart" except in these three places.
    If anyone finds this, please add it.


    How does this relate to "Arminian" thinking?

    Because from my experience, all those who object to God's power in over-ruling the hearts and desires of mere men always hold that God must first give men a chance to harden their own hearts before He imposes justice upon them.

    Regardless of Him knowing the hearts and minds ( 1 Kings 8:39, 1 Samuel 16:7, Psalms 44:21, Luke 5:22 ) and making His will apply over that ( knowing full well the condition of men's hearts towards Him by default ), they believe and hold to this idea that man's will cannot be over-ruled by God unless it "warrants" it.
    In other words, man is not automatically guilty and should be treated as such by God at all times, given a "certain number of chances, etc.", but that man enjoys a certain "sovereignty" granted to us by God, until we forfeit that "sovereignty" by willful and constant disobedience...

    Which we are all guilty of anyway and that according to this "rule", we have already forfeited it.:(
     
    #8 Dave G, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  9. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But, since you've said this and no one seems to be willing to pick this up, then it appears you will have no one to answer your request.
     
    #9 Dave G, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You addressed a spectrum of points. I would rather adress one point at a time.

    Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved, through the Faith*—and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one may boast."

    *note: The Text has ‘the’ faith; the reference is to a specific faith, presumably the body of truth that revolves around the person of Jesus.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    You have an interest.
     
  12. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    " For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    9 not of works, lest any man should boast."
    ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

    *Note:

    The text has "faith", not "the faith", as Jude 1:3 has.
    However, the Greek word, "πίστις" ( transliterated as "pistis" into English ) is the same in both.
     
    #12 Dave G, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  13. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    But I'm not an "Arminian", and I do not agree with Pickering on a great many things that he has to say.
    You asked for those that do agree with him, to respond. ;)

    So, it's time for me to bow out now, since I see no one else engaging this thread, nor was it proper for me to do so.
    But I did see some things that he had to say that caused me consternation and decided to list a few, anyway.

    Good evening to you sir.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    My copy has page 336 note a.
    Romans 9:17, 'For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*'
    *note: a See Exodus 9:16. If you check the record, Pharaoh hardened his own heart the first five times; after that God did the hardening.
     
    #14 37818, May 24, 2020
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I am neither Arminian or Calvinist. Your comments are still welcome. I like Dr. Pickering's work. I am surprised at how many points I differ on. On just Armininanism alone, many points.
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The Greek text.
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 2:8, the Greek text Dr. Pickering is using has, ". . . της πιστεως . . . ." Jude 1:3 the definite article in "the faith" is added in the English.
     
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  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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