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Featured Paul's Model for Soul Winning

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Iconoclast, May 8, 2020.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Iconoclast,

    This is the public forum. I am a member here and do not need an invitation to respond. Please stop trying to censure people who do not go along with your theories.

    What I am asking, for clarification, is do you believe God speaks to Christians today? I do not mean continued revelation but guidance beyond Scripture?

    Can you say with Spurgeon that God will tell every believer specifically what He has appointed them to do?
     
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Romans 1 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

    2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

    3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

    4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

    5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

    6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

    7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

    9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

    10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

    11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
    \
    Paul establishingchristians by the God appointed means
     
  4. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    This is correct in the main. However, we know that Paul, as an Apostle, had apostolic authority and performed numerous miracles as a way to exhibit that authority. That need waned even before all the apostles had died, leaving the written word as the means by which sinners are converted and the saints are nourished.

    Now, I understand what people mean when they say God spoke to them. The Holy Spirit is alive and active in His role as our advocate and comforter (John 14:16; 15:26). How does the Holy Spirit minister to God's people? Chiefly, by two means: 1. The Word of God 2. The ordinances. The Apostle John gives two clear examples of the authority of the written word:

    1 John 1:1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life-- 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

    5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

    The second example is:

    1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Proclaim, write, and announce. The Apostles preached the word in the places in which they ministered, but they also wrote it down in various letters. There is no one alive who is an eyewitness to any of John's preaching, but what we do have is that portion of what John had to say that God made part of holy scripture, and it is the third person of the Trinity that not only inspired the biblical authors, but also gives us the spiritual minds to understand what has been written (1 Corinthians 2:15). Secondly, while it is not the purpose of this thread, the Holy Spirit is very much at work in the proper administration of the ordinances. When a local church observes the Lord's Supper, it brought into the presence of God, not through the elements used, but by the presence of the Holy Spirit. That is why there is a caution in 1 Corinthians 15 about partaking of the Lord's Supper in an unworthy manner. Lastly, when the word is preached it is not empowered by the preacher. Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 1:21, "For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." Where does such power come from to save those who believe the gospel message? From the Holy Spirit.

    Does the Holy Spirit speak to God's people through a small still voice? It depends how you define that small still voice. 1 Kings 18:20-40 is often used to support God speaking inaudibly to His children. The thing all Christians must be careful of is anything that causes us to act in opposition to the Bible. Almost every cult has started with, "God spoke to me" or "God told me". Now, this is obviously different than taking a walk on the Appalachian Trial in the Smokey Mountains and saying, "I heard the voice of God today through His marvelous creation." The beauty of God's creation does speak to us in a sense, but this obviously cannot be confused with the Holy Spirit revealing to us a truth that we do not already know. The bottom line is that the only authority we have from God is the 66 books of the Bible. As God's people we should not worship the Bible or turn into into an icon. The power of the word of God is not contained in the actual ink on paper, but in the message itself which is God-breathed through the person of the Holy Spirit.
     
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Reformed, I'm not sure we can limit the Spirit in saying the primary means the Spirit ministers to Christians are Scripture and the ordinances. The reason is many Christians (myself one) have found the Spirit ministering through other things like prayer. I believe that prayer, in fact, is the primary means the Spirit ministers (not void of Scripture or the ordinances). The reason I believe this is Scripture alone has no application to our lives. It takes the work of the Spirit to unveil what has been revealed in Scripture and to apply spiritual truths to our lives. Also, we are created in Christ to do good works which God has prepared for us to do. I believe God communicates these things to the believer.

    I guess the main thing is we cannot discount God's work, whether by speaking to a believer, through Scripture, or through the ordinances because the Source is God.

    "This is the mark, the peculiar mark of those who are Christ’s peculiar people—they hear His voice. Sometimes it truly sounds in the ministry; sometimes it thrills forth from that Book of books, which is often grossly neglected; sometimes it comes in the night watches; His voice may speak to us in the street. Silent as to vocal utterance, but like familiar tones that sometimes greet us in our dreams, the voice of Christ is distinctly audible to the soul." C. H. Spurgeon
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Paul was all about scripture here and intertwines it with his presentation of the gospel;
    acts13;
    26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.

    27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.

    28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.

    29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.

    30 But God raised him from the dead:

    31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.

    32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,

    33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

    34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.

    35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

    36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

    37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.

    38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

    39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.

    40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;

    41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Acts13, more of the same;
    42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

    43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

    44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
    45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.

    46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

    49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.
     
  8. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    There is a difference between "soul winning", which is personal witnessing, and preaching. Of course, preaching to a group of people is going to involve extensive quoting of scripture. Witnessing to an individual, not so much.
     
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  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    It depends. The gospel message cannot be conveyed apart from the Word of God. Each witnessing encounter is different. I have spoken to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses where the entire conversation revolved around the Bible. Other conversations used less scripture.
     
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  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I've witnessed where the conversation did not even broach Scripture itself. My conversation was, from my part, obviously influenced by Scripture and my personal experience of salvation. But I never had to defend or even establish Scripture as true. It turned out that the guy had a concept of sin (although he was an atheist) and that was our starting point. He did not consider Scripture as the Word of God until after he was saved.

    It is interesting because we not only lean from our experiences witnessing to people but we can learn from each other. What I realized was that all men have some concept of sin. In the encounter to which I refer in this post, the man had a realization that he does not even live up to what are his own standards of conduct. I don't know that I realized this fully until that time.
     
  11. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    John M gty on 1 cor1:21
    The doctrines of human wisdom are opposite the truth of God. They are opposite the gospel. So Paul is saying to the Corinthians, "Look, don't split over human philosophy. The gospel, the revelation of God is all that is necessary. All the truth that God intends you to have is here. You do not need a human philosopher. The word of God stands alone. It needs no additions of worldly wisdom." So, Paul sets human wisdom against the gospel.
    Now, that's his subject. In fact, through the rest of chapter 1, he uses the word sophia 16 times. So this is what he's talking about. Now let me tell you, just to give you another angle on this, philosophy - mark this - has always been a threat to revelation. Philosophy has always been a threat to revelation. Philosophy has never helped God's revelation.

    You do not need to add human opinion to the divine word. Do you understand that?
    You do not need to say, "And God said such-and-such and I would like to add, personally-" No. When God has said it, it is done being said.


    There are no, "In addition to what God has said, I would like to add-" No, no. Martin Lloyd Jones said this, "The whole drift toward modernism that has blighted the church of God and nearly destroyed its living gospel, may be traced to an hour when men began to turn from revelation to philosophy." Now, you may not much about the history of doctrine or the history of the church, but that is a very accurate statement. Let me tell you something else, whenever philosophy gets mixed with revelation, revelation loses.
     
  12. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    "Reformed,

    [It depends. The gospel message cannot be conveyed apart from the Word of God. Each witnessing encounter is different. I have spoken to Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses where the entire conversation revolved around the Bible. Other conversations used less scripture.]

    To even think in any other terms denies the reality of the fall and Its lasting effects on men.
     
  13. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    He continues;

    Listen, people. Revelation doesn't need philosophy. You don't need human wisdom. You don't need human philosophy.

    You need the word of God. If you know the word of God and you understand the word of God, you know the reason for everything. You understand what you need to know and you have solutions to your problems.

    You see there are only two views of anything, man's and God's. And this is how man's goes. Indulgent, shallow, short-sided, unrealistic, pandering to the flesh, elevating desires, supporting pride, advocating independence. Makes man the center. And who wants it?

    Human philosophy, really, I think, just fulfills Romans 1:25. It changes the truth of God into a lie and worships the creature more than the creator. That's what human philosophy does. You see he says in Romans 1, "The knowledge of God was there. You had the knowledge of God. You had the revelation of God." It was all there. You imposed human philosophy on it and you turned the truth of God into a lie. Listen, all God wants is that we accept revelation, not that we get split up into philosophical factions. You add human wisdom to divine truth and all you do is render - look at the end of verse 17 - you render the cross null and void.

    And so Paul with verse 17 launches into a lengthy contrast between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of men. Notice verse 18. "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness. But unto us who are save it is the power of God." Now, notice this verse carefully. "The preaching of the cross is to them that perish." That is to those who are without God, those who are dying in sin, those who will spend eternity in hell, those who do not know God, for whom God's heart is grieved and ours as well. But to them the preaching of the cross is foolishness. But to us who are saved, it is the power of God.

    And the reason it's foolishness to them is because they have elevated their own philosophy. And the cross looks so stupid to them. So foolish. They have such complex philosophies that to come along and say, "I want to give you a simple message. God in human flesh died on a cross, paid the penalty for your sin, by faith in that act, and His resurrection you can be saved and your eternal destiny is secured in heaven forever." And they said, "Oh, ridiculous. How stupid did the death of the one man, on one hill, on one piece of wood, that one moment in history is the determining factor of destiny for every man who ever lived. Ridiculous." They couldn't buy it. Foolish.

    The word foolishness, simple word, it's the word, moron. From which we get the word moron. It's moronic, stupid, silly. Now you'll notice the word preaching there. It's not really the word preaching in the Greek. It's the word. It's the word logos. For the word of the cross. Now watch this, for the word of the cross. Now look back at verse 17. And here you have not the word of the cross, but the word of wisdom, human wisdom. And there's the contrast. He contrasts the word of wisdom with the word of the cross. Human wisdom is set against the cross. Now, I want to mention one thing. The word of the cross here means all that is involved in the cross. The logos the total revelation.

    You say, "Well, John, what is the word of the cross?" See this book? I believe this whole book is the word of the cross. Do you know that everything before the cross pointed to it and everything after the cross explains the cross? This is the word of the cross, revelation. Revelation of God then which pinnacles and peaks in the cross is set against the wisdom of men. Paul says, "These two things are at each other. They are opposites." And so the people who hold to worldly wisdom think the cross is moronic, but we who are saved know it to be the power of God. And that's what he said in Romans 1, "I am not ashamed." Even though the world thinks I'm stupid and even though the philosophers think that I must have a small brain or that I am uneducated, I still am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. It may be moronic to them, but it is the power of God to them who believe.

    So, the word of the cross, which looks like foolishness to men is really the power of God. You see men, because of their rationalism, because the elevation of the human ego, because they want their own philosophies can't stoop to something as simple as that. And it is simple, believe me. I mean, Jesus Himself said, "Unless you become as a little child you can't enter the kingdom." It is simple. It is not a complex philosophy. Paul arrives in Corinth. He arrives in a maelstrom of philosophies, a melee of words flying all over Corinth. What’s he going to do? Just offer another philosophy and get caught in the whirlwind? You know what he does when he gets there? Look at chapter 2, verse 2.

    "When I arrived in Corinth," in verse 1 he says, "I didn't come in excellency of speech and wisdom of words, but I came," and this is what he said. "I determine to know nothing among you except Christ and" – what? - "crucified." You know why he said that? Because it was already enough verbiage flying around. He wasn't about to offer them another philosophy. It just would have been another thing to hang on the wall. He wanted to give them something that would pound home something very opposite to what they held. Something very simple, not complex, something very historical, not ethereal, something very concrete and objective, not subjective and foggy and he gave them the cross and he kept it up and kept it up and kept it up in Corinth for at least 18 months. That's how long he stayed there.

    You know, you study the human religions, but don't study them too long because you've got other things to do like mow the lawn and things like that. But study human philosophy for a few minutes and you know what you'll find? That every religion that man has ever developed and he's developed all of them except Christianity is complex. That appeals to his brain, to his ego. It's elaborate. Man won't crush his ego to come down to the level of the simplicity of the cross and the fact that he recognizes that it doesn't matter what he thinks and it doesn't matter how smart he is, but that you're saved not through your intellect, but through faith.

    He doesn't like to come to that place. You see, he doesn't like the cross because if you come to the cross you have to admit that you're a sinner and he doesn't like that either. And that's the problem. The cross is still the issue. God's revelation peaks in the cross. But you know human philosophy doesn't understand it. To give you an illustration, you know Peter didn't even understand it. Peter had a philosophy. The word philosophy we could use the word opinion. Peter had an opinion. He thought the Messiah would come and set up his kingdom and everything would be just rosy.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Since a new thread is open - this is closed
     
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