Losing Your Salvation?

gekko - you are right as usual. Saved - lost and then hopefully "saved once again" is very possible in Christ.

Romans 11 proves it.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for [/b]God is able to graft them in again.[/b]

24For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
[/quote]

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Bob,
It is the ‘not yet seen’ part that distinguishes faith from absolute knowledge. We have not seen absolute knowledge of our salvation in this world, for again, if we did salvation could not be held by faith. Deception must remain, in this world a possibility. Our works remain a clear indication to us in this world that our faith is that consistent with the saving faith of Scripture. IF our works are of such that we maintain a clear conscience before God and man, our assurance can be known to us again 'by faith' that we are His children indeed.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Our salvation begins with the initial salvation experience, continues as we walk in this present world, and will be consummated in our obtaining absolute knowledge as we stand before Him in judgment and hear the pronouncement such as , “Enter in thou good and faithful servant to the eternity of rewards God has prepared for those that have overcome!” Then and only then will our faith be turned to sight, and our hope shine forth dissipated in the light of absolute knowledge. Only after hearing those words will the possibility of deception be eternally removed. Until we stand before Him in judgment, we must continue to make our calling and election sure, and continue to examine ourselves to see if in fact we are of the faith. We must be faithful unto the end and hold forth our obedience as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to Him which is our reasonable service. We must remain faithful in our commitment to follow Him utilizing our continued obedience, as testified to our conscience via the Holy Spirit to His commands, as our present temporary assurance that in fact we are truly His and not simply deceived. Any assurance in this world of our final standing before God must be testified to our conscience by a clear conscience void of offense before God and man.

The question to the professing believer should not be whether or not I can lose my salvation or not, but rather will I hear those faithful words in the end, traveling on the path I am currently on. Is our path one of obedience to Gods commandments as testified to us via a clear conscience before God and man, or do we possess an evil conscience, warning us that we are heading away from the eternal home our faith desires to guide us to.
Our faith must be coupled with the evidence of a consistent holy walk for us to maintain a consistent testimony of confidence such as Paul expressed in Romans 8:35 as to our final standing before God. If one desires Paul’s confidence, one must be in possession of Paul’s conscience, a conscience void of offense before God and man.

Faith without works is dead being alone, just as Scripture clearly teaches.

 

Heavenly;
Tis but a fine line we walk here. I agree to have absolute knowledge would make faith void. What I do believe is that when lifted up by the Spirit then we know much more than when we come back to the flesh. I know that I am not the man I used to be. I knew I was a sinner and wonder if I knew that then why can't I know something about my Salvation. I think we know more than some want to give us but still doubt will enter from time to time and when it does then there goes your absolute knowledge. Thank God for faith!! The following Scriptures teaches us that we will know some things but the last one brings us back down to earth and tells us our knowledge is through faith. I think we agree.

1 Corinthians, chapter 2
9": But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

"10": But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

"11": For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

"12": Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Romans, chapter 8
"16": The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
1 John, chapter 3
"14": We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren . He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1 John, chapter 5
"20": And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


1 John, chapter 5
"13": These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Romans, chapter 8
23": And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

"24": For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? "25": But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

 

Yea, but its not so simple for there are plenty of Scriptures that say we do know. Please read the entire post above. I agree we do not have absolute knowledge but we know a lot. We not walking around with blinders on either.

His Spirit bears witness with our Spirit that we are the sons of God. Pretty good witness don't you think?

 

Speaking of "Knowing"

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

The latter two tend to be among my favorites...

No particular reason...

Just thought I'd toss 'em out...

SMM

 

There have been churches, Associations and just friends split over the "knowing" question so it has to be answered fully so as to not cause a division.

 

Gekko: we do not have absolute knowledge - never have - and never will.


That we are finite is a given an indisputable. That is not what I am addressing. When I speak of ‘not having absolute knowledge,’ I am speaking in the specific context of the nature by which we hold our assurance of salvation. When one states that they cannot fall from a state of grace, or that once saved always saved is true, if they are to speak of any cognizant characteristic of the way in which we hold our salvation, some things are automatically assumed which I feel are directly contrary to the teaching of the Word of God. One that holds to once saved always saved as a state in which they personally believe is true in their case, must of necessity believe that we can have absolute knowledge, knowledge beyond all possibility of error, of our salvation. Such a belief in turn eliminates salvation held to by the faith Scripture mandates it is held by in this world. Faith of one salvation and absolute knowledge of ones salvation cannot coexist. Either you walk in salvation by faith or you walk by salvation as known absolutely, but you cannot walk by both at the same time. The two states are mutually exclusive.

We know that God knows those that will be saved as absolute knowledge, yet God has withheld this knowledge from us except as we hold that knowledge by faith. As we fulfill the conditions He has laid down in order to be saved, which are repentance, faith, and obedience to the end, we walk in the faith that we are accepted by Him. As we stray from those conditions, the assurance we once had is clouded by the testimony of conscience that we are not who we once thought we were. God has not so designed the assurance of salvation as to grant to us an unwavering assurance while in possession of an evil conscience. It is as if though a cloud shrouds our once vibrant faith, knowing full well that our actions and formed intents are not in keeping with the clear conscience we once had at salvation. Our duty can be none other than to repent once again for the sin in our lives, doing our first works over again in light of sins committed subsequent to our original salvation experience. Only then will the light of faith burn brightly again with a full assurance of our righteous standing with Him. Our goal should remain firm to strive to walk in such a way that ones relationship with God becomes one of such a nature that to sin would be the absolutely unusual thing in times of unusually intense pressure and temptation, and righteousness and love towards God and our fellowman the by far more constant direction in our lives. It should be the normal walk with God to find ourselves quick to repent and turn from all known wrong, relying on the Holy Spirit to strengthen us in our inner man to walk humbly and righteously before our God in our daily walk.

If one says he or she loves their spouse, the least that can be expected from them is a consistent walk, proper actions towards their spouse. If the common experience the spouse encounters is one of unfaithfulness and abuse, it would only be just to question the love the spouse has for the other. If such actions of abuse and injustice were to continue indefinitely, one could only expect a separation or divorce to be in order. In such a case one would be fair in stating that the offending party in fact must not love the other to maintain such a pattern of maltreatment.

Our walk with the Lord is much the same. “If ye love me, keep my commandment,” “He that saith he loveth me, and keepeth noth my commandments, is a liar and the truth is not in him.” Scripture is clear. The following will not inherit the Kingdom of God. “ Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. “ This should be a fearful warning to each and every one of us to make our calling and election sure, and to allow our actions to direct our understanding to the state of our relationship and the eventual standing we will or will not have as we stand before the Lord in judgment. We all shall give an account for every idle word spoken and every deed done in the flesh.

Help me oh God to be faithful in examining myself fairly before the light of your Holy Spirit via my conscience in light of your Word, and to judge myself in this world that I may not have to be judged in the next. 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

 

You are arguing against OSAS - and I would too. However your "reason" is that you are doubting the veracity of "assurance" claiming that "assurance" is at best "by faith" not by some contract in stone - verifiable etc.

But by making that argument you have done nothing to refute OSAS since OSAS is more than happy to agree that the LOST person that THINKS he is saved - is just lost without any damage to the OSAS doctrine!

Rom 8:16 says that the Spirit of God Himself "Bears witness with OUR spirit that we ARE the chilren of God" -- so assurance is based on the power and effectiveness of God Himself! Arguing that assurance is too flimsy to support OSAS is not going to go very far.

OSAS fails when the "fully assured" and "really SAVED" person then falls from Grace "and is LOST".

If a LOST person (who merely "thinks" he is saved) simply leaves church - OSAS is not discredited at all because the OSAS group can just say "well they were never saved in the first place no matter what their claims to assurance".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Those who accept the Bible truth about "perseverance of the saints" (i.e. "Some" Arminians and ALL 3 pt Calvinists and ALL 5 point Calvinists) -- can have OSAS but not assurance because they do not know that 10 years from today they will not "fail to persevere". And if they do fail to persevere their own doctrine demands that they "retro-delete" today's assurance.

The consistent Arminian will have ASSURANCE but not OSAS. For the consistent Arminian - assurance can not be "retro deleted" the way it is in 3 and 5 point Calvinism and the way it is for "Some" Arminians that believe in OSAS.

ALL of the groups conclude that those who PERSEVER firm until the end were always saved.
No differentiator there.

NONE of the groups claim they can know that they will continue to "persevere" TEN years from today (except they can all claim it by faith). IT is what their belief DOES with that failure that is the difference between the groups.

But you have to hand it to the 4 point Calvinists -- for the extreme price of dumping the Bible doctrine on perseverance they GAIN a logic basis that CAN have both ASSURANCE and OSAS because nothing they do ever makes a change in anything.


In Christ,

Bob

 

1 Corinthians, chapter 1
"6": Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

"7": So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"8": Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


1 John, chapter 5
"20": And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.


Ephesians, chapter 1
13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


2 Peter, chapter 1
5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

I believe (faith) OSOS, for to believe otherwise would mean you are lost forever if you fall. I believe not one drop of Jesus's blood was wasted and to believe in a fall would mean that you were covered with the blood of Christ and then fell therefore a complete waste of His blood. I believe He is able to keep that which He "saves" until it is presented to the Father.

I would rather believe is someone thought they were saved and then found they were not is that they were never saved in the first place so they might have a chance for to believe otherwise they would be lost forever, for to renew them unto repentance again is impossible.

Hebrews, chapter 6
4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

Bro Bob,

I don't think I've ever seen Hebrews 6 used this way before...

Usually, it is used by Arminians as a scare tactic...

The only mitigation I might add, for your comment, is John's saying there are sins not unto death...

To me, that would see to mitigate the absoluteness of Hebrews the way most Arminians use it...

Making "Falling Away" not a casual easy to be accomplished situation at all...

I know we disagree on OSAS...

So, I don't want us to start lobbing Mortar Shells...

But, I do think that is an interesting approach to Hebrews 6 and wanted to say so.

SMM

 

In my opinion, we need to have faith in God but at the same time we need to distrust ourselves.

So in one way we should believe we are "saved" but in another way we should be leery of our own self-confidence.

We should ask God to creat in us a clean heart and to renew a right spirit within us. Then it is our privilege and duty to believe that He does it, right now. For He says, "A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you." So how can we not believe in this respect that we will be saved? We look outside of ourselves to the power and promise of God and not to ourselves.

Yet at the same time we must remember that we are human and we are not reliable. The Bible also says "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." 1Cor:10:12 There of course would be no need to warn us of falling if it were not a possibility.

God may be faithful but we as humans are not reliable always.

Mt:26:41: Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

There is always a possibility of losing your salvation because you fail to watch and pray, because you fail to take heed lest you fall, because you are human and liable to change your mind.


Claudia

 

Bob Ryan:You are arguing against OSAS - and I would too. However your "reason" is that you are doubting the veracity of "assurance" claiming that "assurance" is at best "by faith" not by some contract in stone - verifiable etc.

Goodmorning Bob,

Communication is an art of which I am just a learning student. The last thing in the world I would desire is to appear to one doubting the veracity of ones assurance of salvation. Let me be on the record, once and for all, that God has provided the means whereby we can be fully assured of our right standing before Him and a full assurance that in fact He will finish the work that He has begun in our hearts. I am trying to raise two basic points. The first being the nature of our faith in salvation as opposed to absolute knowledge of our salvation in this present world. The second point being that faith is not divorced, nor can it be, from our conscious awareness that our actions are in accordance with our faith. What I am opposed to are the notions that one can see ones salvation from God’s perspective (absolute knowledge) in this present world, something IMHSAS incorrectly assumes, and the false notion that I can have a trustworthy faith while at the same time be in possession of an evil conscience, a conscience that testifies to unrepented and repeated sins in ones life. I would maintain that ones assurance would be limited to times when one has repented of all sins that are past, and wains as one falls into sin subsequent to that cleansing experience. It would seem to me the purpose of every believer to seek a place of consistent holy living before God through obedience and dependence upon the power of the Holy Spirit to guide and direct ones actions in accordance to His Word, without which no steady and constant assurance will be possible to maintain. Any assurance one would like to hold to while one is in possession of an evil conscience, is shaky at best, deception at worst. I believe that many are being deceived today into believing they have eternal security while in fact they are but deceived as to their standing before God. “ Ps 24:3 ¶ Who shall ascend into the hill of the LORD? or who shall stand in his holy place?
4 He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully.
5 He shall receive the blessing from the LORD, and righteousness from the God of his salvation.

Our eternal salvation is settled in this world, and we hold to the understanding of it by faith. It is consummated in the next when our faith will be turned to absolute knowledge of our salvation. What good will it do a deceived individual to find out at the judgment that he was never saved? I believe that it would be in keeping with wisdom to awaken the deceived in this world as to their real state, and not wait until it is too late. OSAS assumes that one can know with such absolute certainty of their standing before God that deception is impossible if they only have faith. Faith, by it’s very nature, must of necessity provide for the ‘possibility’ of deception. God has placed within man a conscience guided by, if listened to, the Holy Spirit which will grant to us an accurate assessment of the state of our heart. One will find assurance when our hearts are clean and pure, and doubt will enter as one entertains sin. Our duty as believers desiring a sure hope of eternal life should be to enter into such a close relationship with the Lord through loving obedience and power from on High, that our assurance will reach a point of being constant and continuously testifying that we indeed are children of God and joint heirs with Christ. That will never be gained by faith divorced from works, or faith divorced from constant and continuous formed intents in accordance with love to God and our fellowman.

No man in this world is beyond deception, and the need to examine ourselves, to see if in fact we are of the faith, will never transpire in this present world. Faith without works is dead being alone, and no faith can be trusted that is not coupled with, and formed as a direct result of, true repentance, faith, and a holy walk before our God.

 

Claudia:There is always a possibility of losing your salvation because you fail to watch and pray, because you fail to take heed lest you fall, because you are human and liable to change your mind.


Hi Claudia,
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of ‘things not yet seen.’ How can you ‘lose’ something you possess by faith? I can see how one can lose ones faith, but you cannot lose ones salvation, for salvation is not something that is entirely gained in this world. Salvation is a process, begun in this world, walked out in this world, and consummated in the next. It is not over till it’s over. I have been saved (by faith), I am being saved (as shown forth by the Word of God taking effect in a holy walk,) and I will be saved in the next when we hear those word’s “Well done thy good and faithful servant.” Salvation is not just a one time act, nor is it just ones walk, nor is it just a judgment. Salvation consists of all three parts. One will lose ones original hope in salvation at the judgment if one is not found in Christ. Until then, we can only fall from our original hope, or lose our faith. All hope is not lost until we stand before Him in judgment and be judged outside of Christ. No man has lost or gained salvation ‘in its entirety’ until the judgment. The question to me is not ‘can you lose your salvation’, but rather the question is ‘will you gain it on the road and in the direction you are now traveling.’ Our works stand as a testimony of that road and direction. Faith without works is dead being alone.

We, in this present world, are in a state of probation. The judgment of losing or gaining is yet to be determined, although by faith and obedience we can trust by faith as to the outcome. Lu 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”

 

Brother Bob:"I would rather believe is someone thought they were saved and then found they were not is that they were never saved in the first place so they might have a chance for to believe otherwise they would be lost forever, for to renew them unto repentance again is impossible."


HP: You mention a difficult passage of Scripture here. Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I for one do not believe that this verse presents any impossibility of a believer leaving the faith of his initial act in salvation by sinning willfully against God, and then coming back to God in sincere repentance. I believe it simply means that if one is in a state, and remains in a state, of rejecting their only hope, then ‘in that state of rejection’ it is impossible to be renewed. There are clear illustration, both in the OT and the NT, of believers that have left their faith, yet found renewed grace as they fulfilled the command to repent and exercise faith once again in their lives. There are also illustration of those that have left their faith and have continued on, grieving the Holy spirit to the point I believe it was clear that they were lost in the end. Saul in the OT and Judas in the new are two examples. Jesus said that he had ‘lost’ none except the one disciple, Judas. You have to have had the one to lose him.

In Revelations we hear the clear admonition to "go back and do your first woks over again." If it were not possible, why the command to do it?

 

OK so we have a Christian that takes the 2cor 13:5 advice to examine ourselves and SEE IF we are in the faith and they conclude "YES".

What happens when ten years from that point - they fail to persevere?

Does their "assurance" get retro-deleted?

The Arminian (consistent Arminian) CAN know that he really IS SAVED today but can not know that ten years from today he will CONTINUE to persevere and be saved.

The 3 and 5 point calvinist can not even know that.

The one thing that IS consistent about all forms of Arminianism and Calvinism -- NONE of them CAN KNOW today that they WILL persevere ten years from today.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gekko:"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in your, except ye be reprobates?"

also,

1timothy 4:1 "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"

what you think of those two?



HP: As for me, I personally believe our formed intentions, as known to us by our God inspired conscience, serves as the means by which we must follow the admonition to examine ourselves. We can say we have faith, but do our works, motivated by formed intentions, prove that our faith is founded upon truth? If our intentions and subsequent works are found to be at antipodes with love towards God and man, it would serve to provide us the needed evidence our faith is unfounded or in grave danger and that either we have been deceived into believing that we have exercised saving faith or that we have departed from our first estate.

Scripture makes it clear that indeed we can depart from the faith, yet it is not over until we pass from this life. Unless one has grieved the Holy Spirit away, I believe it is possible to renew our faith, and once again be restored to full fellowship and assurance before God as to our final state in eternity.

 

The problem is that by choosing a system that retro-deletes assurance when someone fails to persevere ten years from today - you are in a mode where NO assurance is really "certain" until the end of the life where one sees -- sure enough I DID persevere from the last point of revival to this.

That is really no real assurance "until the end".

In Christ,

Bob