Featured The False Doctrine of the Immortality of the Soul..

So wait, when we die as believers, do we just sleep, in the sense of, being dead, will we be at least dreaming? or will we literally just be nothing until the resurrection and we receive our new bodies and go up to heaven to be with God forever and ever?

To me, I think... when we die now, we are already going to be in heaven with Jesus BECAUSE, Heaven and Earth are not on the same time frame. So who is to say the resurrection would not have already happened in Heaven's time? And we are living, in human sense, in the future, away from the present of the world?

I hope that makes sort of sense. Because, doesn't the bible say that to God a day is like a 1000 years and 1000 years like a day? And we already know God spans time and space, so Heaven must too? So why couldn't we say that we are already in heaven and resurrected in Heaven's aspect of "time" while the people on earth are going through linear time.

 

None of that address the mortal soul of the person in Isaiah 53:10 or Isaiah 53:12.

 

Yes, dead-asleep.

Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

No.

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.​

The dead (in Christ Jesus, those who sleep in Christ) are on record in Heaven, meaning that their characters are fully recorded. The person/being themselves are non-existent consciously (living).

Yes, in the respective resurrections to come, the saints will indeed be raised out of their graves and go up:

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Php_3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

Those can be dangerous words. Our 'thinking' always needs to be subject to the word of God itself. Our 'thinking' is often out of harmony with what God thinks, and we need to constantly check with His standard.

The sentiment (without being harsh) is spiritualistic vapour, and what I mean by this, is that the idea is found nowhere in scripture, and makes of Heaven (3rd) nothing. The ideology separates Heaven (3rd) from earth, when both are in the same creation of God. When Jesus ascended in His resurrected and glorified body, He went to an actual place, that is 'up' there:

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.​

Earth and Heaven (3rd) are connected together by Jesus Christ. Jesus went to the "place" (John 14) that is outside of our earth, and out beyond our local Sol system, called the 3rd Heaven. Jesus returned to the unfallen world from which He came, called "Paradise" (heavenly Eden).

Look up into the sky at night and see all the unfallen universe circling the throne of Deity, which is at the center of all things.

Heaven (3rd) is not intangible. It exists in the present with this earth. Consider all of the times that Angels have met with mankind, and also the Son of the Father, travelling back and forth from that "place" to here.

God's universe runs on the same 'time', though differing star systems (such as ours, the Sol system as we (mankind) have called it) may have differing day/night (month or year) cycles compared to each other. In Heaven, it is always day.

Rev_21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
Rev_22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.​

Persons watch hollywood spiritualism, and then take that into their thinking, without realizing it. It is all vaporous contradictory aether.

 

Paul warned:

2Ti_2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.​

The resurrections (plural; [1] Special, some Righteous, some Wicked, [2] First Great General Righteous only, [3] Second Great General Wicked only) to come have not yet happened, for Jesus and the Angels have not yet returned in all their glory:

Mat_25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mar_8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
Luk_9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.​

The resurrection involves Jesus leaving Heaven (3rd), the "place" in which He exists now, presently, and returning with all the Holy Angels, and Psalms 24 will take place again.

Jesus Christ is in Heaven (3rd), like you and I are in the places we are at now. The distance is great between us all, but we all are in the present "now".

No. God is the God of order, not of confusion, which is what that type of thinking leads to (again, not to be harsh), but think it through step by step and what it would do to the theology of scripture as it is written.

Why do persons "wrest" 2 Peter 3:8 like this? That verse is in the context of Creation, the Flood and Redemption. The 7000 year History of Earth, since its inception (beginning, Creation). Peter is speaking about the promise of God in the context of deliverance, redemption from sin. Just as God worked 6 actual days and rested the 7th in Genesis, so too God allows this world and satan to work in sin for 6 days (6,000 years from sin), but the 7th (1000 years, Rev. 20) is dedicated to God. This is why Peter, John ,etc could say that we are "in" the "last days" 2,000 years ago, since from Creation to Jesus is circa 4,000 yeaars (4 days with the Lord), and the last 2,000 years (have been the last 2 days with the Lord), with the final "day of the LORD" (1,000 years) to yet come (almost here).

That is a misunderstanding of the omnipresence of God. God is omnipresent through His omniscience, see Psalms 139 in total. The Father is in a specific "place", as it is written, Our Father which art in Heaven (3rd) ... and not Our Father which art everywhere (which would make of God nothing but a vaporous perfume, a pervading essence of non-description, and in effect, a non-Person, non-Being). It would take the theology of scripture, in which God is a Person, in a Place, to Pantheism or Panentheism, as if somehow God is in the tree, the rock, etc, or that you and I are somehow a piece of God, etc.

Read the scriptures in regards Heaven. This may help you - Heaven, Is It For Real (PDF) - https://archive.org/download/amazin...ary Of Sermons 24 - Heaven Is It For Real.pdf

This may also benefit you - Where Do People Go When They Die?

This may be of help also - http://supernaturalresources.epizy.com

Because it would violate all of the scripture, the nature and Person of God (the Father), even Jesus Christ (the Son). It would negate the God of order, and introduce a God of confusion.

You have a misunderstanding of 'time', as it is designated from Genesis 1 for the local Sol system, for local record keeping, and as time is throughout the whole of God's creation (unfallen universe).

 

Ok fair points @Alofa Atu

But I consulted my father on the matter and he explained to me that our spirits go up to heaven when we die and we are in Paradise with Jesus, because, then, in the scripture where Jesus said to the theif on teh cross "And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43)
(tell me how you can dispute this verse if he was not immediately in heaven with Jesus after he died?)

I'm sorry but it does not seem to me that a God who lovers us would let us sleep for however long it takes for Him to rapture the church, with us being without a conscience or thought or anything like that. I can't prove it but I believe that we will be with Jesus right after we die, but we will not yet have our new bodies. I take back what I said about the resurrection as I see now that that thinking was against scripture. But I DO still stand on the theory that God is outside time and space, because he knows what is going to happen before it happens. I'm not making him to be like a Pantheon spirit saying He is in everything lik the trees and leaves, but that He is aware of every little thing that happens on earth and in heaven, He knows what is going to happen before it happens and He has the power to do whatever he wants with us after we die. I also would like to point out he scripture in Revelation where it talks about the elders above in heaven- now is this before or after the rapture? So if it is before the rapture of the church, explain how they are already in heaven?

Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. (Rev. 4:4)

If there could be some discussion on this I would appreciate, I like learning from this place.

 

Well, thank you (fa'afetai lava).

I assume you are referring to Our Father in Heaven?

God, Our Father, in Heaven, would not contradict His word, inspired of the Holy Ghost, and so what God says in one place in scripture, as Ecclesiastes, Acts, and so on, He would not now give a different answer than already given through and to so many before, all the way back to Adam.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.​

Notice, if you will please, that Adam (and thus all mankind in him) are not an immortal soul/spirit, but are created from the "dust" of the "earth", and when a person/being/soul/creature dies, they return to that dust. Thus the grave. The 'spirit', or "breath of life of God" returns to Him, which is simply that which gives life to the dust, which we are. It is His breath, His life, that returns to Him, as He lent His breath unto us during our life. Notice, how the Bible describes life (alive) from death (not alive):

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
​

Thus, to go from alive (living and breathing) to death is the reverse process. God takes back the breath of life given, and the dust goes back to the ground from which it was originally. That which returns to Heaven, is God's breath of life, not us, who are of the "dust" of this "earth", from which we began.

Ecc_12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

If you accept this verse of Ecclesiastes as being true, then why do you not accept what Ecclesiastes said in Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, as earlier cited? Notice that Ecclesiastes 12:7 speaks of "dust" and "spirit" (breath of life of God), and the person/being ceases to be a "living soul", and becomes a dead soul/being/creature, and returns to dust, until God raises them again out of the dust in their respective resurrection. Also notice that Ecclesiastes 12:7, makes no distinction between righteous and wicked, human or animal. Would you suggest that all go to Heaven without a resurrection first, man or animal, good or bad? If you mistake what Ecclesiastes 12:7 says that would teach what the occult and spiritualism world teaches, being OOB (out of body experiences, or astral travel), all of which is satan hypnotic implants into the mind, in other words, false.

How could we actually be in Heaven (3rd; aka "paradise") before our resurrection, when Jesus Himself stated in John 14:

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.​

That phrase "come again" refer to the Second Advent, or Return of Jesus. Heaven (3rd) is an actual "place", as real as the place in which you are now, just unfallen.

Many "wrest" that verse in what it says, ignorantly (unknowingly), not realizing in so doing, what it does to the rest of scriptures teaching, and to the resurrection and second advent, among other things, such as God's own character.

Notice the context:

Luk 23:39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.​

When did the "thief" expect to be in "paradise"? When? Notice, "when thou [Jesus] comest into thy kingdom." (vs 42). Jesus has not yet received that "kingdom", as of yet, see Daniel 7:13-14, and also Revelation 17:14, 19:16. Jesus went to go (after His own resurrection and ascension (40 days later)) "receive" that kingdom, but that "kingdom" is not yet.

Luk_19:12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.​

The "far country" is "the end of Heaven":

Isa_13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.​

Jesus did not "comest into [his] kingdom" the day he died upon Calvary. He was placed in the Tomb:

Mat_27:60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
Mar_6:29 And when his disciples heard of it, they came and took up his corpse, and laid it in a tomb.
Mat_28:6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.​

Just as Job states:

Job_21:32 Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Job_14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!​

The thief was not guaranteed (promised) to enter "paradise" that very day. What Jesus stated was a Promise in that day (the day the thief was crucified with Jesus), that in the resurrection to come, the thief would be "remembered" (as Job states) and come to life and enter to "paradise" at Jesus' return in glory as King of Kings, when He comest into His kingdom.

Luk_23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43 και ειπεν αυτω ο ιησους αμην λεγω σοι σημερον μετ εμου εση εν τω παραδεισω
​

Jesus was simply promising that very moment, Truly I [Jesus] am promising you (the penitent thief) "To day" (right then, now, presently), that when I [Jesus] come into my kingdom, I [Jesus] will remember you, and raise you to life, in the resurrection of Life, and take you home to be with me in "Paradise" (John 14, etc).

 

Our thinking can be wrong, which is why we need to always go to the word of God, for right (God's) thinking on anything, as God never contradicts Himself therein. You seem to think that to sleep (death) in the dust of the earth, and to not be aware (alive, conscious), is 'unfair' of God toward us? Why? Before you were born, did you know you were not born yet? Of course not. It is just of God, and merciful. The prophet Isaiah said of it:

Isa 57:1 The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart: and merciful men are taken away, none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil to come.
Isa 57:2 He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness.​

Job said:

Job_17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.​

Notice that Job agrees with what was stated by Solomon in Ecclesiastes:

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.​

When a person goes to a grave marker, etc, and visits those who have died before, the dead (those asleep) do not know that a person visited. They are dead-asleep, knowing nothing. They only await in the grave for the Voice of the Son of God:

Joh_5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. [both future tense]

1Th_4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

Notice the word "rise" (earth to Heaven), not "descend" (Heaven to earth), in regards the resurrection. It is Jesus that "descends" to us, but we that "rise" to Him.

Indeed, please notice your own words, carefully, compared to what Scripture has given, in proof. God has not left us in darkness, or ignorance of these things:

1Th_4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.​

God desires you to know for certain and to understand His glorious way and plan. To reject that way or plan, is to accept the way or plan of satan, which is spiritualism, occultism, and in truth, deception, which leads to maligning God's own character, for truly these things are not merely about us.

What Bible verses do you think would teach this? Please carefully and prayerfully read them in their context, and also in harmony with all that is written in scripture on the subject from Alpha (Genesis) to Omega (Revelation). Then let us look at them together and compare our prayerful study. For truly, the NT persons cannot gainsay the OT persons.

That is the spiritualism, or occultism, of satan. Describe with words this existence without using body language (as you have said that those are without "new bodies"). How do you communicate with a mouth, vocal chords, hands, lips, tongues? How do you see without eyes or a brain? How do you hear without ears or a brain? How do you experience touch without flesh, nerves, or brain?

Please consider reading (only 8 small pages, click the "pg" button to move forward or backward) - Personality of God, Page 1 -- Ellen G. White Writings

Jesus, when He was resurrected had a glorified body of flesh and bones (Luke 24:39), and ascended to a real "place" (John 14) that is filled with trees, fruit, unfallen creatures, rivers, water, etc and stones.

Ok. I appreciate those who are sincerely honest in conversation, and are willing to change as needful, as God's word instructs us. I have had to come into harmony with God's thinking in many places, as I did not always think as I do now. The Bible is very much my corrector, and so long as it is also for you, we move closer together in understanding God.

Notice the word used, "theory". A "theory" is not "fact", nor even "truth". You stand upon shifting sand by so doing. Please do not think me harsh, but come stand with me on scripture, which is no theory, but already tested, and proved.

My response in no way diminishes God's attributes of omnipresence, omniscience, omnipotence or omnipathy. Yet, do not think that God does not have "form", "shape", "likeness" (all words in scripture, describing God, citations upon request), and does not also exist in 'time'. When persons say that God is 'outside' of time, they generally do not know what that means, but they simply say it, as it sounds as if it were to attribute to God something grand. God is eternal, always existent. There is never, and never can be, a 'time' in which God is not. 'Time' is something for creation to be under in regulation by God, see Genesis 1 for instance. It is the difference between dealing with 'finite' (limited) and 'infinite' (eternal).

That God knows all things is not in question. That which is in question is the understanding of God's nature or attributes of God's Being, as far as He has enlightened us about such through the word of God, the Scriptures, as you and I are presently differing on that subject, not the subject of God's omniscience.

Most people have a confusion, not about God's omniscience (though some do), but rather His omnipresence, which in that confusion breeds pantheistic and panentheistic ideologies about God, which are untrue. When the "form", "shape", "likeness", "image" and even location ("in Heaven") of "place" are vaporized into airy non-things, it makes of God into a vaporous perfume, a nothing aether, and in effect erases God, all but in semi-description. All satan's plan of course to erase God from the mind/heart of man.

The 24 elders, and 4 living beats (creatures) already exist in Heaven as real tangible and unfallen beings. They existed before the earth was even created (see Job, Revelation 12, etc) They are not human, mankind. They are representatives of the unfallen worlds and universe.

The 'rapture', I assume, you are referring to:

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:17 επειτα ημεις οι ζωντες οι περιλειπομενοι αμα συν αυτοις αρπαγησομεθα εν νεφελαις εις απαντησιν του κυριου εις αερα και ουτως παντοτε συν κυριω εσομεθα​

The being "caught up" together when Jesus returns is for mankind. The 24 elders are not of mankind. They are of the unfallen races of Heaven (which needeth no repentance, see Luke 15:6-7; Revelation 12:10, having never sinned). They already have crowns (as Adam had at the beginning before sin; Psalms 8:5, etc), of which mankind do not receive until their resurreciton:

2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

They are already ruling with God, before the earth was even created, already have thrones and crowns. They are the "ancients" that the book of Isaiah speaks of.

Sure thing. Always glad to have a study with those who love to study God's word.

'tai lava.

 

366 The Church teaches that every spiritual soul is created immediately by God - it is not "produced" by the parents - and also that it is immortal: it does not perish when it separates from the body at death, and it will be reunited with the body at the final Resurrection.235

367 Sometimes the soul is distinguished from the spirit: St. Paul for instance prays that God may sanctify his people "wholly", with "spirit and soul and body" kept sound and blameless at the Lord's coming.236 The Church teaches that this distinction does not introduce a duality into the soul.237 "Spirit" signifies that from creation man is ordered to a supernatural end and that his soul can gratuitously be raised beyond all it deserves to communion with God.238

The Church teaches that the soul is immortal. That's the final word.

 

@Alofa Atu
Thank you for this enlightening discussion, but I would make one thing clear with you: I in no way support or believe I speak of God or Jesus in cultism or satanism attributes. When I spoke of our new bodies, I mean the bodies we are promised in scripture which will be our new heavenly bodies. This is in Scripture :

The Bible says that Christ, "by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21)

Dispute this verse with what you said that we will not have heavenly bodies, which will be given to us in the Resurrection, so I was saying that before that, our spirits (which we will become spirit after our physical bodies die as the Holy Spirit is a spirit so likewise we will be so, will be in Paradise with Jesus right after we die.

Also, I would like to point out that in the OT Elijah was taken up into heaven, now why does he get to go to heaven and not the rest who die in Christ?

As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven. (2 Kings 2:11)

Likewise Enoch:

After he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked faithfully with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years. Enoch walked faithfully with God;
then he was no more, because God took him away.

Explain please.

Though I don't support everything Billy Graham did in his life, I trust he is a wise and God-fearing man and that he is with the Lord now in heaven, here is his answer when asked if we go into heaven right after we die those who are in Christ:

Billy Graham:
You should not worry; the Bible clearly teaches that if we know Christ, we are safely in God’s hands forever when we die, and that nothing “in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:39).

Does this mean we immediately enter heaven when we die? My own study of the Bible has convinced me that we do. This is reflected in many passages in the Bible. Jesus said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies” (John 11:25). The Apostle Paul wrote, “I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far” (Philippians 1:23). The Bible also says, “Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands” (2 Corinthians 5:1).

We need to remember, however, one additional truth: At the end of this present age, God will reunite our souls and our bodies. In fact, we will be given new bodies—bodies that will be similar to Christ’s body after His resurrection. They will never experience illness or pain, and they will never grow old.

Take comfort in the fact that your wife is now safely beyond all the pain and dangers of this life, and she now dwells in God’s presence forever. And this is your destiny too, and the destiny of every person who truly trusts Christ for their salvation.

Edit: By the way, the 'father' I was referring to in my last post at the beginning was my actual Earthly father. (Where are you from by the way?)

 

OK, I think you have made a grave error, because you said that those 24 elders 'never sinned'. That is a false thing to say since Christ was the ONLY ONE EVER who did NOT sin. So how can you say that these people did not sin? Your supporting verses don't do anything to back up what you just spoke.

That's getting dangerously close my friend.

I don't think I need to discuss anymore with you if you believe in nonsense like that.

 

You are incorrectly assuming that the 24 elders are of the race of mankind (ie, human beings). They are not. They are heavenly unfallen beings, from the unfallen worlds. Notice the context I already provided, in that they already have thrones, wear crowns and their white garments.

Rev_4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.​

Isaiah calls these "elders" the "ancients" (Isaiah 24:23).

In Revelation, these '24' do not show up with Jesus in His glorious triumphant return (Revelation 5:5-6; Psalms 24; Psalms 68:18; Ephesians 4:8), but are already present with the Father in Revelation 4:4, having already existed there, from even before the creation of the earth (Job 38:7; Revelation 5:3,5).

Notice again the verses I provided:

Luk 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luk 15:5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
Luk 15:6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Mat 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 18:11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
Mat 18:12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
Mat 18:13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
Mat 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.​

The 24 Elders are of those already existent in Heaven (the '99', representation of every other unfallen world; John 14:2-3, the many 'mansions' are the unfallen worlds (Hebrews 1:2, 11:3) in the house of God (Isaiah 40:22)) with the Father, that "went not astray", did not "sin" as Adam/Eve did, and therefore, "need no repentance", neither salvation, still being "just persons", and "rejoiceth" with Jesus when He returned with the "firstfruits" (some specially resurrected of mankind; see Matthew 27:51-52; Isaiah 26:19, etc).

You have greatly mistaken what I have stated, and you presently have a misunderstanding about those who have sinned and those who have not sinned.

All in Adam the first (1 Corinthians 15:45,47), except Christ Jesus have sinned (Romans 3:23, 5:12; Hebrews 4:15, etc).

The Angels (created beings of Heaven) that fell with Lucifer sinned (2 Peter 2:4; Ezekiel 28:15).

The '99' unfallen worlds (texts cited previously), which are the whole of the unfallen universe, with all their unfallen worlds and unfallen beings upon them, never sinned, and remain in Heaven. Jesus left those unfallen beings, like Gabriel, 'Herald', the '24' the '4' (representing the unfallen worlds, 4 being the universal number of both time and space), and came to earth, but after His death, burial, resurrection and ascension, returned "home" to them, with some of the captives, as seen in Psalms 24, Revelation 5, etc.

There are many 'angels' (as we mostly know them by) that have not sinned. The Father has not sinned. The Holy Ghost has not sinned. So, it is not merely Jesus, that has not sinned among all those.

The issue, is that you are focusing only upon mankind, this earth. My evidence includes a larger realm, namely earth and all the heavens above. Surely you would agree that there are angels that have not sinned, and that the Father and Holy Ghost have not sinned, right?

 

Do you realize that you just agreed (gave a check mark - Link) to RCommando, a specific type of Roman Catholic, who uses the Jesuit solar blazon (symbolic of the male/female (straight/wavy) union in sexual congress), the pagan heart with Maurician cross, citing the Roman Catholic Catechism (Link) as authoritative, as defined by the position of Papacy? Are you sure you are Baptist and not Roman Catholic?

Yet, your theology does do so. The ideology of an immortal soul/spirit being that separates from the flesh is pagan in origin, even as admitted by Rome in its own writing (documentation upon request), and is completely neo-platonic dualism. It is most occult. It 'seconds' (Amens) the teachings of OOB, astral travel, etc., all of which are satanic theology.

Notice that he [Jesus] did not preach unto them, Platonic Dualism, which they already knew of, or of the Greek philosophy [Plato, Aristotle, Socrates] and superstitions of entering into Heaven/Hell, as an ethereal ghastial immortal non-entity, as the Greek and Roman 'religions' taught. They already taught that, being the “wisdom of this world”.

"...is the doctrine of spirituality. ... Dualism ... Plato ... Platonic Dualism ... " [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "S", "Soul"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Soul

"... For positive evidence, however, that the soul will continue after death in the possession of a conscious life,we must appeal to teleology and the consideration of the character of the universe as a whole. ..." [Roman Catholic Online Encyclopedia; "I"; "Immortality"] - CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Immortality​

Therefore, if you still "agree" the Roman Catholic Catechism, you agree with their definition of the origins of their theology.

That is not in question, and I plainly gave more texts than that on the subject.

The text of Philippians 3:21, contextually is speaking of the glorious return of Jesus Christ in the clouds of glory, for the resurrection:

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:​

Those who die in Christ Jesus, do not immediately enter Heaven, but rather they are "asleep", "sleep", "slept" (Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 2 Peter 3:4) and remain in the dust/grave of the earth until their resurrection to receive new bodies as it is written:

1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

They are not alive in Heaven. They, who are in Christ Jesus, that have fallen on sleep/death (1st), remain in the dust/grave until Jesus returns to resurrect them all, and translate the living at the same time:

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

 

I do not dispute a single verse in Scripture (KJB), let alone Philippians 3:21. What I am disputing is what you are saying in regards what happens to persons in their death. You have a mistaken notion.

I never said any such thing, and I request that you now prove your assertion by quoting where I said any such thing in this thread. If you cannot, would you perhaps think about apologizing. It would be appreciated.

That is the satanic occultic philosophy that I spoke of. It is separate from the glorified and resurrected/translated bodies texts or teaching.

Mankind is not an 'immortal spirit/soul' that separates at death from the flesh. That ideology is Platonic/Neo Platonic Dualism. The Bible (KJB) does not teach that. Paganism/Occultism does.

The 'spirit' that returns to God at death is His breath of Life, not 'us'. We return to dust from which we are taken, as seen by the already cited verses.

Consider reading: Absent From The Body

We are not, immediately, upon death, 'present with the Lord', as Paul specifically the "when" we are present with the Lord, and it is at the resurrection, not before:

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.​

What lies inbetween living now and living then (after resurrection)? The dust of the earth, the grave, death (1st; sleep), nakeness:

2Co_5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​

Yes, Elijah was taken up to Heaven. Elijah never died. He was translated alive, and given a glorified body (Luke 9:31), as a type of all those to come who will be translated alive upon Jesus second Advent. Elijah did not enter Heaven as a 'spook' and 'immortal aetheral essence'. He [Elijah] entered Heaven as a translated and glorified man.

Yep, all good. It is counter to your position on the state of the dead. Elijah never died. The verse is no support for your theological position in regards those who die in Christ Jesus.

Same as Elijah. Enoch never died. Enoch was translated alive and given a glorified body before entering Heaven. An early type of all those who walk daily with God shall be translated alive at the end (see previous verses already cited). Again, this verse, and those like it, are no support for your position on the state of the dead. Enoch was then and very much still is now, alive.

Again, Heaven is for tangible/physical beings, not aethereal nothings that cannot be described by words. The Angels themselves have glorified bodies of flesh (1 Cor. 15; Matt. 22; Mar. 12, etc), even as satan himself still has down here.

Billy Graham??? I suspect him of actually being a Jesuit (his theology and life certainly align thereto). I disagree with your assessment of him. Read Cathy Burns, Billy Graham and His Friends - Link. Which I have read. It is thoroughly documented, for instance - Link. Never the less, right or wrong about the man, this thread is not about him, and he is non-sequitur to this thread. He is dead asleep, and soon it shall be revealed whose side he was on. I will agree with God's judgment of the man, rather than my own at that time.

For clarification, are you referring to your "Earthly" biological (DNA) father, or a priestly 'father', such as a 'pope', 'cardinal', 'bishop', 'priest', or 'superior'? Please be specific, as it will help me to know whether or not you are Baptist or not. If you choose to not answer, I will assume the latter, rather than the first from our discussion and your actions.

Non-sequitur to this study. I am sent from on High with a message (Revelation 14:6-12).

 

Is the human soul mortal or immortal? | GotQuestions.org
Is the human soul mortal or immortal?

Question: "Is the human soul mortal or immortal?"

Answer: Without a doubt the human soul is immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments: Psalm 22:26; 23:6; 49:7-9; Ecclesiastes 12:7; Daniel 12:2-3; Matthew 25:46; and 1 Corinthians 15:12-19. Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself said that the wicked “will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life” (Matthew 25:46). With the same Greek word used to refer to both “punishment” and “life,” it is clear that both the wicked and the righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

The unmistakable teaching of the Bible is that all people, whether they are saved or lost, will exist eternally, in either heaven or hell. True life or spiritual life does not cease when our fleshly bodies pass away in death. Our souls will live forever, either in the presence of God in heaven if we are saved, or in punishment in hell if we reject God’s gift of salvation. In fact, the promise of the Bible is that not only will our souls live forever, but also that our bodies will be resurrected. This hope of a bodily resurrection is at the very heart of the Christian faith (1 Corinthians 15:12-19).

While all souls are immortal, it is important to remember that we are not eternal in the same way that God is. God is the only truly eternal being in that He alone is without a beginning or end. God has always existed and will always continue to exist. All other sentient creatures, whether they are human or angelic, are finite in that they had a beginning. While our souls will live forever once we come into being, the Bible does not support the concept that our souls have always existed. Our souls are immortal, as that is how God created them, but they did have a beginning; there was a time they did not exist.

 

Talk about "wrest[ing]" scripture! Yikes!!! The wicked do not live forever by that verse. It is the "contempt" held by the righteous, for sin, that is "everlasting". Sinners perish (John 3:16). Try reading the verses prayerfully and slowly.

 

Again, Yikes!!! Talk about "wrest[ing]" scripture.

Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.​

Psalms 22:26 says nothing about an immortal spirit/soul. It refers to "The meek" (Psalms 37:11; Matthew 5:5), who shall inherit the New Heavens and New Earth, in their translation or resurrection. They indeed "shall" (future tense) live forever. It says nothing about the wicked, who "perish" (John 3:16). Those who die in Christ Jesus, merely "sleep" until their respective resurrection, as it is written, and so are not actually dead (second death):

Joh_11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?​

 

Wowzers!!! Talk about "wrest[ing]" scripture! Psalms 23:6 says nothing about an immortal soul/spirit:

Psa 23:6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.​

It is referring to King David (in context; Psalms 23:1), and that David knew of the resurrection (see the rest of David's psalms), saying "I will" (future tense, not "I am now dwelling") and notice other texts on David:

Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Act_13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Ki_2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.

Heb_11:32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:

Heb 11:35 Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:​