How were they saved?

Hardsheller asked a good and real question and the response is not one I want to bury on page seven or whatever of another thread. He asked a non-Calvinist to explain how we thought anyone could be saved apart from predestination, with particular reference to those who have never heard of Christ. Here is something I sat down this afternoon and wrote for you, Hardsheller. It is not Calvinist. It is not non-Calvinist. It is biblical and it is history. I hope it helps.

In Christ,
Helen Setterfield

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If one is saved only through Christ, there is a legitimate question that arises: How were people in the time before Christ saved? How are people who have never heard of Christ saved? Or all they all doomed to hell?

In Revelation 13:8 we read that Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation (or creation, depending on which translation you are using) of the world. Thus, the price for sin was paid from before creation in fact, although it was worked out in time in earth’s history. At the very least this indicates a potential for salvation from the beginning of creation.

In Genesis 3, when God is pronouncing the consequences of disobedience to Adam and Eve, He tells Satan that there will be a Savior from the ‘seed’ of the woman (indicating a virgin birth). When Eve gave birth to Cain, her firstborn, what she said is NOT what is recorded in modern translations. In the Hebrew the actual words are “I have been given a man-child, YHWH.” In other words, she seemed to have thought that this was the promised seed which would crush the head of the serpent. We know she was wrong, and I can only imagine her horror when this child turned out to be the world’s first murderer.

But the Promise was there, and known. We can only guess that when the Promised One did not appear (or was imitated by someone evil), that people gradually started to disbelieve the promise. Adam and Eve were, perhaps, thought by some of their descendents to be just crazy old people who didn’t know what life was really like (sound familiar?). At any rate, by the time of Noah, he was the only preacher of righteousness left on earth. All righteousness is in Christ, and so we know that Noah knew of the Promise and believed in it. He was saved both physically through the Flood and spiritually through his faith. His faith was in the Promise, which is how Christ would have been understood before the Cross.

That this Promise was known by Noah and immediately after the Flood is clear. For Job, who was probably Peleg’s nephew – Joktan’s son Jobab (Gen. 10:29), declares “I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes – I and not another. How my heart yearns within me!” (Job 19:25-27).

Skip to Abraham. He knew the Promise, and was reminded of it by God in a way that shows us that the Promise was available to ALL men alive on earth before Christ. In Genesis 15, Abraham asks God about an heir and “Then the word of the Lord came to him: “…a son coming from your own body will be your heir.’ He took him outside and said, ‘Look up at the heavens and count the stars – if indeed you can count them.’ Then he said to him, ‘So shall your offspring be.’
Abram believed the Lord and he credited to him as righteousness.”

It might seem that this is the second of three possible times God promised Abraham that many people would come from him. But although that promise is clear in Gen. 13:16 and then again later in Gen. 17:16, Paul himself writes what the meaning of the exchange in Genesis 15 was:

“The Scripture does not say ‘and to seeds,’ meaning many people, but ‘and to your seed,’ meaning one person, who is Christ.” (Gal. 3:16)

There is a clue as to what went on with Abram and God in Genesis 15 in the word translated ‘count.’ It can also mean ‘recount’ as in ‘tell’. What was it Abram was to recount, or tell, in the stars? Although this is often argued, there is good evidence that the Gospel story itself was written in the zodiac – something which has been grossly perverted since then. But a strange piece of evidence regarding the peoples’ knowledge of the meaning is even today in Egypt. It is the sphinx. With the head of a woman and the body of a lion, she points to the first and last signs of the zodiac. The story started with the virgin and ended with the Lion of Judah. A further bit of evidence is in the fact that the meaning of the star names is the same in every ancient language. This is partially detailed in this article: http://www.ldolphin.org/zodiac/index.html

(The fact that Abraham believed this to be reference to Christ coming from his body can be found when he took Isaac up on the mountain to sacrifice him. In Genesis 22:5, Abraham instructs his servants to wait "while I and the boy go over there. We will worship and then WE will come back to you." He expected them both to come back, even though he knew he was going to slay his son. Nevertheless, possibly believing his son to be the Promised One, he also knew, then, that the boy would be resurrected and that death could not hold him.)

A further bit of evidence regarding this being in the stars is found in the Bible.

“The heavens declare the glory of God;
the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
Day after day they pour forth speech;
Night after night they display knowledge.
There is no speech or language
Where their voice is not heard.
Their voice goes out into all the earth,
Their words to the ends of the world”
Psalm 19

Paul makes reference to this in Romans 17-18:

“Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:
‘Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.’”

And, in Isaiah, we read that although man named the animals, God named the stars (40:26).

So when Psalm 19 tells us that the heavens declare the glory of God, and their night after night they display KNOWLEDGE, and when Paul refers to this as people hearing the word of Christ, then we can presume that the ‘glory of God’ Psalm 19 refers to is not the pretty twinkling of the stars, but rather Christ, Himself, who, as the writer to the Hebrews tells us “is the radiance of God’s glory ad the exact representation of his being.” (1:3)

We may add to all this evidence of people always knowing enough to believe the testimony of so many missionaries who have come back stunned to report that the people already knew something of what they were there to tell them. Whether it is Bruce Olsen with the Motilone Indians in Colombia, or Don Richardson with people in the South Pacific and Asia, or Gladys Alward with the Chinese, the story remains the same – God has left something – He has made sure something remained. Enough to believe in the Promise of God and that God Himself would rescue men from their condition. It’s in the ancient writings of other religions as well, such as Hinduism. Long since buried and ignored, the writings still exist in the oldest texts.

And this should not surprise us. After all, the story of creation itself as well as the Flood can be found in legend after legend of the ancients. The message, the story, had been passed down. How much more so the very Promise of God, especially if God Himself had written it in the heavens?

And Christ is that Promise. We have the name – Jesus, or Y’shua – to attach to it, and the history of the Incarnation. But the reality was there all along, just as Job declared. “I know my Redeemer lives.” And if a person believed in that Promise – that God Himself would rescue men, then that was faith in Christ. As Paul said, yes, they knew. They all have always known, at least in part. At least enough for salvation. For Peter was correct to write that God is not willing that one should perish, but that all should come to repentance. God has left no one out. All are invited. Provision was made for all. The invitation and message have been available to all.

 

whatever, "Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Abraham believed about the Christ. All righteousness is in Christ.

Remember the question: "What must I do to be saved?"

And remember the answer? "Believe."

Those who believed on the Promise, whether or not they knew the name Jesus, were saved.

Me4Him,

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That means that, in God's terms, sins were paid for from the beginning. And if Eve thought she had given birth to the Savior, and if Job knew his Redeemer lived, and if Noah was a preacher of righteousness, and if Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness, then we have some pretty good evidence that people before the cross knew well the Promise of God, faith in which was salvation. After the cross we have the name and history, but that does not change the character or work of Christ, which was established from the foundation of the world.

 

1. Christ was the first to rise from the dead and, as the firstfruit, first to enter heaven. (Acts 26:23, Rev. 1:5, etc.) Those who died in a state of grace, if you will, as those who were saved were in Paradise, or "Abraham's Bosom" until Christ led them 'a train of captives' to follow Him to heaven, after which Paradise existed no longer. We see in Jesus story of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus, that Lazarus was with Abraham and they were not yet in heaven.

2. God is ready with forgiveness for all, but forgiveness must be accepted (which requires repentance) in order for it to be effective. Believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting forgiveness from God are all one package deal. This is different from atonement, which is the debt of death for sin, which Jesus paid for all men, whether they are aware of it or not, or whether they are believers or not.

3. The witness of heaven is the story of the Gospel written in the heavens themselves. Thus all men could know of the Promise, even to the death and resurrection of the Savior. It is not that one's calling was uttered by stars -- that would rank with the occult astology today. It is that the Promise of a Savior was there in the story of the Zodiac. This was the story that Abraham was to recount. This is the glory of God in the heavens which transcends all languages on earth.

It is large part because of this that Paul could write "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities -- his eternal power and divine nature -- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." (Romans 1:18-20)

It is not an unconventional way of coming to Christ. Those of us who come are those of us who responded to what truth we did see before we were born again and wanted more truth. Then we were led by the Father to the Son, who accepted all of us. It is this way and has always been this way.

Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, to be adopted as sons through Jesus Christ, and the way this was predestined to happen (in other words, the WAY was chosen ahead of time and there is no other way), was through the work of Christ. No one can come to life but through Christ and no one can come to Christ except he or she respond to whatever truth they have been presented with in their lives by wanting more, so that the Father will lead them to Christ. This is why Christ said "I am the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE."

It is perhaps important to mention here that the first sentences of Hebrews are extremely important to remember when discussing how God spoke to people in the past:

"In the past God spoke to our forefathers thorugh the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe."

Before Christ, the zodiac was known to all as the story of a Promise of a Savior. In the heavens He is born of a virgin, is rejected, tramples the serpent (the largest constellation, which winds through the heaven), is sacrificed and rises again as the triumphant lion.

Satan has perverted these things to signs like 'virgo,' 'leo', etc. But we don't need them now. Now we know who Christ was. We know the story in history and we don't need it in the heavens. But the story is still there, locked away in the mists of the past, but still available for study for those who are interested.

But nothing, NOTHING, trumps the person of Jesus Christ and now we know who He was and is. And that is the main thing.

And people are allowed to respond as they wish to Him. People are allowed to respond as they wish to the truth. Consequences, as warnings, start almost immediately for those who prefer the lie, but they are still free to choose, and then to repent if they are humble enough.

 

We send missionaries to say "Look He DID it! We have Good News for you!"

Every tribe and culture has a hook left on which to hang the Gospel. But they have gotten so mucked up with demonism and mythologies and sorcery that getting the reality of God untangled from all that can be a real challenge. As far as I am personally concerned, I feel the same way about untangling people from the New Age garbage! The plain and simple Gospel will always need missionaries, probably to every nation, until Christ comes.

The real Gospel is heart-lightening, freeing, joyful. His burden truly is light and people need to know they are not responsible for trying to save themselves, which is how all perversions end up presenting it.

 

A few points here.

1. Lambert Dolphin is a close personal friend and one of the finest Christian men I know. His webpage bothers some because it is a resource file and not limited to Christian apologetics. As such, they accuse him of believing everything that he has filed there. That would make him a multiple schizophrenic, which he most certainly is not! He was mentored by Ray Stedman and Lambert remains someone I trust absolutely as a brother in Christ. He is a frequent houseguest here and we exchange emails daily. I don't think many people know him as well as my husband and I do. I was, by the way, one of the co-authors of Gospel in the Stars. Before I married Barry Setterfield, another co-author, I was Helen Fryman.

2. Anyone who has been in the occult and astrology in our time is well aware of the demonism and perversions that exist there and I agree with that. However that has nothing to do with God's original purpose for the zodiac. It is referred to in the Bible but not explicitly stated, and that is a good thing. Can you imagine what people would do with it today? However the fact is that the Magoi from Persia were watching the stars for the expected sign of the birth of the King of the Jews, as Daniel has taught Zoroaster so many years before. In Genesis 1:14, God states the stars are for signs as well as times and seasons. It's not at all necessary now, because we know who Christ is, but it was a gift from God before to the whole world.

People knew the stars. They didn't have television! The star names were as familiar to them as television star names are to us. The night sky was the parade of seasons and times. The early migrations from Babel were full of people who looked at the sky for direction. They KNEW the stars! They knew the names and the stories. That is why the names meant the same in every ancient language.

rlvaughn, it is not a matter of how much one knows which is the telling point in salvation, but of one's faith in the little one might know. None of us knows the whole truth. But we know Christ. We know God. It is because of Him we are saved, regardless of the extent of our knowledge. People then were the same. They were closer to the original promise, certainly, but, like Job, they did not need to do more than believe that Promise.

But just like people today, the truth can get messed up with a lot of garbage and even though people believe, they get saddled with a lot of extra that is not needed. I'm sure there are Roman Catholics who are our siblings in Christ, but that is because they believe and depend on Jesus, despite all the extra trappings and works the RC church tries to hang on them. God knows the heart. Someone in the far reaches of some jungle tribe may know simply that there is a story that the God above all gods will someday come and rescue men. So he believes that; counts on it; lives by that. He is a believer of the truth that has been given him and God will lead him to Christ, one way or another. Then there is the other end of the scale -- the theologian who knows the Bible backwards and forwards and maybe in several languages but cannot find it in himself to put his trust in the God of that Bible. He is in much worse condition than our tribal brother.

But for the tribal brother, the news of the Gospel helps him shed all the extra nonsense that is part of his culture and religion and zero in on Christ. That is a wonderful thing for him! Then he can run the race and not simply hope and trust in what he does not know.

Me4Him, you have made a common mistake about the idea of 'name'. First of all, when Moses asked who he should tell the Israelites he had talked to, God responded "I AM the I AM" Jesus used the same pronouncement in Greek four times ("Ego eimi") in the Gospel of John.

But the main point is not that. The main point is that the reference to name is a reference to character. If you 'have a good name' it means you have a good reputation -- your character is known and is respected. We don't use that meaning so much any more, but that is what is being referred to by the 'name' of Jesus. It is His character that we must claim and call on. His 'name' is different in different languages. His character remains the same. And since He is God, that is the character we are depending on.

I know a number of Mexicans name Jesus. It is a popular name there. Y'shua was a popular name 2000 + years ago, too. It is not on the spelled letters I put my faith, but on the character of God Himself, who was not called "Jesus", but, rather 'Y'shua' or 'Joshua' while here on earth. When we pray 'in the name of Jesus' we are not reciting some magic spell! We are praying in His character, and that HIS will be done. That's just a whole lot more than five letters.

And the folk who lived four thousand or more years ago were just as capable of depending on the character of the living God as you and I are. We have more knowledge due to the Incarnation, but who is to say that we have more faith?

Gina, I'll have to get back to you. This is already long and my son is here from California and Chris needs to go to bed and...dishes...and....

But I shall return!

 

Marcia, my husband lectured in astronomy to astronomers for years in South Australia. He is the one the Astronomical Society and the Dodwell family trusted with the Dodwell papers after George Dodwell, government astronomer for South Australia and respected world-wide, died. I say this simply to indicate that he knows what he is talking about where astronomy is concerned. Please read his research on what the star of Bethlehem was:
http://www.setterfield.org/star.htm

I can appreciate, given your past, that you are entirely wary of anything to do with signs and stars, but what you were involved with is a satanic perversion of the real thing. However just believing this or that about, for instance, the star of Bethlehem without any research to substantiate your faith is blind faith. The Bible is not about blind faith. Research is not a bad thing.

The pillar of cloud by day/fire by night was the Shekinah glory of God. This was probably what showed the Magoi the exact place in Bethlehem, but it was not what led them to Bethlehem, your paranoia notwithstanding.

Mazzaroth IS used in the Bible, and you will find the word in Job 38:32. The Mazzaroth ARE the 12 signs of the zodiac. That is the definition of the word.

Nevertheless, this thread is NOT about a defense of the Gospel in the Stars. It is about the fact that God has not left any man on earth without enough truth about the Promise of a Savior to trust upon. If you do not like the idea of the Gospel in the Stars, that is fine. You will still find a record of the ancient promises in ancient Chinese characters, in the Motilone legends, in Peace Child, in "Eternity in their Hearts", and in the reports of hundreds of other missionaries, all of whom wondered who on earth got to the people before they did that the people had some knowledge of the Gospel!