Featured John 3:19-21

Nothing in this post is true.

 

I could never see the appeal in defeating a strawman.
If someone really wants to argue against those who believe God gives men the choice to reject his gift of grace, then they should go after what “General Baptists” really believe.

 

Here is the problem with your little claim. You are characterizing intent that you cannot know.

 

What I see him doing is being discerning enough to note the differences in professing believers and how they view salvation.

Admittedly, none of us can know what is on another person's mind because we are not the Lord, nor are we able to see the thoughts and intents of the heart.
We also do not know who is really born again until that fruit appears ( Galatians 5:22-23 ).

Based on what someone believes and teaches, we eventually can and will know, within reasonable bounds, what is on their minds.
Otherwise, how are we to mark and avoid false teachers?
But we can only do so with the Lord's guidance and following what is in His word, not strictly on our own suspicions.

The Lord would not have had Paul state this to Timothy if He did not have guidance that we as believers should follow:

" This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith." ( 2 Timothy 3"1-8 ).

 

Here's what I see when I read this:

1) In the last days perilous, dangerous times shall come.
2) Mankind shall be self-confident, self-esteemers, self-lovers...
Their lives shall be marked by always wanting more, never being able to get enough.
They shall be prideful boasters, insulting the Lord and His ways, disobedient to parents, unthankful ( taking things for granted instead of being appreciative of what good they have ), unholy ( vile, coarse and loving sin instead of doing what is right ).

3) Without natural affection ( I think this speaks for itself...mankind shall have unnatural affection ), they shall break promises, they shall lie about people, ( incontinent ) lacking self-control ), fierce ( violent ), despisers of them that are good...

4) Traitors, heady ( full of themselves ), high-minded ( thinking they are above others ) and they shall love pleasure more than anything else.
5) They have a form of godliness, but in their actions they deny the presence of the Holy Spirit that they claim to have in them.

From these, God's children are to turn away.

6) Of this sort are people who infiltrate themselves into places and capture the minds of people that are sinful and led away with all kinds of lusts.
7) These people are also ever-learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth, try as they might.
8) As Jannes and Jambres ( Pharoah's wise men ), withstood Moses...
So do these sorts also resist the truth.
They are men of corrupt minds and are reprobate ( disapproved of God, see John 3:19-20, John 3:36 ) concerning the faith.


Whether or not you believe this, Mark, God's word does tell us as believers not only to separate ourselves from those whose walk is ungodly, it does list some of the marks of not only false teachers ( 2 Peter 2 ), but false brethren;
And it does command us to not only recognize these people, but to mark and avoid them.

As I see it, stating that one cannot know intentions by outward actions is not recognizing what God's word says on the matter.
I'd also have to ask you:

" Do you really believe that no one can ever know who is saved based on how they walk in this life, and what they believe about the Bible?"

 

Her

Yea, im sure thats exactly what you are seeing

 

I am a Particular Baptist and a TULIP 5-pointer when it comes to Sotierology, so Ephesians 2:1-10 is the basic blueprint for MY salvation and Romans 10:9-10 is the yardstick that I use to measure my salvation.

That does not mean that I think it appropriate to misrepresent the beliefs of my brothers in Christ (and I have many brothers in Christ with whom I disagree on the details of HOW God does what He does) that hold to salvation as an invitation accepted by the believer.

 

Well, having been taught what I was taught for over 25 years in the Baptist churches I was a member of, I'd have to agree with you that your assessment is somewhat close.
As a young believer, I was taught that the reason I was saved was because I believed on Christ.

They never came right out and said that it was my choice of Christ that saved me, but as a 12-17 year old, that is what I held to, because that is basically what was preached.
In other words, I was taught that my decision to believe was what caused me to be born again.

 

I have to disagree with this one, however.

Honestly, I don't believe I've ever heard that come out of any Baptist I've ever met...
but again, we were taught that we were saved by our belief;
Not that we had believed on Christ because we were saved.

So, with respect to the above, I'd have to modify it ( if it were my statement ) to say that many Baptists, in my experience, claim that God gets all the credit...
but things are hazy as to how far that credit extends.
"Particular Baptists" ( "Reformed", "Primitive", etc ) on the other hand and in my experience, are the exact opposite in declaring how far that credit extends...

All of it, start to finish.

 

Uh no it Doesnt

 

Thanks for the compliments!

Roman Catholics have only one requirement for a person to be born-again and become a child or God.
That requirement is to be baptized with wholly water, of as they say, holy water.
Prof:

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of Baptism
1213 Holy Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the gateway to life in the Spirit (vitae spiritualis ianua),4 and the door which gives access to the other sacraments. Through Baptism we are freed from sin and reborn as sons of God; we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church and made sharers in her mission: "Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word."5

Whether a Child Can be Baptized While yet in Its Mother's Womb?
Summa Theologica — Saint Thomas Aquinas
Objection 1: It seems that a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb. For the gift of Christ is more efficacious unto salvation than Adam's sin unto condemnation, as the Apostle says (Rom.5:15). But a child while yet in its mother's womb is under sentence of condemnation on account of Adam's sin. For much more reason, therefore, can it be saved through the gift of Christ, which is bestowed by means of Baptism. Therefore a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb.

What is the difference between ordinances and sacraments? | GotQuestions.org
The Roman Catholic Church teaches there are seven sacraments: baptism, confirmation, holy communion, confession, marriage, holy orders, and the anointing of the sick. According to the Catholic Church, these sacraments “are efficacious signs of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us. The visible rites by which the sacraments are celebrated signify and make present the graces proper to each sacrament” (The Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd edition, p. 293). Also, “The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation” (Ibid., p. 292). This teaching reveals a works-based system of salvation and a sacerdotal approach to worship.

The Bible, in contrast, tells us that grace is not given through outward symbols, and no ritual is “necessary for salvation.” Grace is the blessing of God, freely given to the undeserving. “But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:4–7, NKJV).

Hopefully, you will accept these references as valid support for my position that Roman Catholicism is a works-based believe system.

 

@Twiceborn:
An item of note:

The whole time I was in IB churches from when I first believed on Christ at the age of 12 in 1978, I'd never heard of election, predestination, and calling.
Neither did any pastor I'd ever heard a sermon from, ever read from Romans 8:29-33, Romans 9, John 6 ( except for verses 37 and 40 to support "Eternal Security" ), John 10:26, John 17, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Ephesians 1, Ephesians 2:10, John 3:19-20, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, rarely from the Psalms ( much less Psalms 65:4 ), never from Matthew 25:34, rarely from Matthew 24 ( that's another subject that has to do with the second coming ) never from any passage that stated, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear", and never from any passage that included the words, "elect" or "chosen" , etc.

Rarely were passages like Matthew 13 ( the parables of the sower and the wheat and tares ) ever brought up, and if they were, it was only briefly.
1 Corinthians 1:18 was never referred to, and there was no mention of 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ( except for verse 9 on very rare occasions, and "the things" in that verse were never developed ).

2 Corinthians 4:3-4?
No...definitely not.

Romans 10?
Not in the Bible outside of Romans 10:9-17.
All sermons began at 9 stopped without continuing to verse 18 and beyond.

Romans 11?
Not in the Bible unless the sermon was about the Gentiles being grafted in.

Ephesians 1?
Not in the Bible unless we were talking about Ephesians 1:13-14.


Regrettably, for all the talk I heard in my church ( and the sister churches I often visited ) preaching the entire counsel of God, for 25+ years I think I saw or heard maybe 10% of it even referenced or preached on.

Bible studies were focused on the same subjects over and over again and rarely, if ever, went outside the things I was taught the first 5 years I was a believer.
After 15 years I began to sense a problem and wanted the pastors to expand their teachings into other subjects that we had never covered, but they never did.

In fact, I learned more doctrine ( as well as other subjects ) outside of church during my own private studies, than I ever did inside a church...
Which, now that I look back on it, seems strange.
Jesus told Peter, " feed my sheep", and Ephesians 4:11-16 tells us why teachers and preachers are given...
And it isn't to stop at or avoid certain passages for fear of there being contention.



Since the entire word of God is what we as believers live by ( Matthew 4:4, Luke 4:4 ), it seems I was being fed from a very limited selection.

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again and again. God gives man the choice to choose Him or not. He knows who will choose him from the start, so in a way, yes, He chose us before we knew what we'd pick. But by man's choice, God weaved His mighty work into our lives. God still gets all the credit, because man doesn't do the saving, he simply makes the choice to BE saved by the maker.

I don't see how some people profess to be believers when their view of God makes Him out to be a God who forces us to choose him. Forced love is not real love, CHOSEN love is real love, and God chose to love us even while we were sinners, and in our sinful states, gave us a choice to love him back or to go our own way.

 

none come to the light of Christ unless the Father enables them to do that!

 

What say Protestants?

Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), Chapter XV. Of Repentance unto Life, III.

• III. Although repentance be not to be rested in, as any satisfaction for sin, or any cause of the pardon thereof,(e) which is the act of God’s free grace in Christ;(f) yet is it of such necessity to all sinners, that none may expect pardon without it.(g)

Repentance is a WORK necessary for salvation.​

Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), Chapter XXVII. Of the Sacraments.

• I. Sacraments are holy signs and seals of the covenant of grace,(a) immediately instituted by God,(b) to represent Christ and His benefits; and to confirm our interest in Him;(c) as also, to put a visible difference between those that belong unto the Church, and the rest of the world;(d) and solemnly to engage them to the service of God in Christ, according to His Word.(e)
• II. There is in every sacrament a spiritual relation, or sacramental union, between the sign and the thing signified: whence it comes to pass, that the names and effects of the one are attributed to the other.(f)

Westminster Confession of Faith (1647), Chapter XXVIII. Of Baptism.

• I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ,(a) not only for the solemn admission of the party baptized into the visible Church;(b) but also, to be unto him a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,(c) of his ingrafting into Christ,(d) of regeneration,(e) of remission of sins,(f) and of his giving up unto God through Jesus Christ, to walk in the newness of life.(g) Which sacrament is, by Christ’s own appointment, to be continued in His Church until the end of the world.(h)

Reformed (non-Baptist) Baptism sounds a lot like what Catholics said in their catechism. Are all Presbyterians also teaching works based Salvation?
​

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 28: Of Baptism and the Lord's Supper

• 1. Baptism and the Lord's Supper are ordinances of positive and sovereign institution, appointed by the Lord Jesus, the only lawgiver, to be continued in his church to the end of the world.
  
• 2. These holy appointments are to be administered by those only who are qualified and thereunto called, according to the commission of Christ.

1689 Baptist Confession of Faith, Chapter 29: Of Baptism

• 1. Baptism is an ordinance of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus Christ, to be unto the party baptized, a sign of his fellowship with him, in his death and resurrection; of his being engrafted into him; of remission of sins; and of giving up into God, through Jesus Christ, to live and walk in newness of life.
• 2. Those who do actually profess repentance towards God, faith in, and obedience to, our Lord Jesus Christ, are the only proper subjects of this ordinance.
  
• 3. The outward element to be used in this ordinance is water, wherein the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
• 4. Immersion, or dipping of the person in water, is necessary to the due administration of this ordinance.

The Baptist Confession makes it sound like the ordinance of immersion is mandatory, doesn't it.
​

Protestant Confessions are as easy to "cherry pick" verses to make a point as Catholic Catechisms.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone that thinks Baptism is a bad idea and people should not do it?
Does anyone think Baptism is not commanded?

 

What say Protestants? I don't know. I am not a Protestant, I am a Baptist.

Do you disagree with my statement: "Roman Catholics have only one requirement for a person to be born-again and become a child or God. That requirement is to be baptized with wholly water, of as they say, holy water."

Regardless, I see no scripture in your post to support these uninspired manmade documents.

Moreover, I know of no protestant group or organization that says water baptism results in the subject being born-again and becoming a child of God.

Roman Catholic doctrine goes so far as to teach, under certain circumstances, a child still in the womb should be baptized to insure that child will be born-again and go to heaven should it die while in the womb.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Baptism
Baptism of unborn infants
This leads to the baptism of infants in cases of difficult delivery. When the Roman Ritual declares that a child is not to be baptized while still enclosed (clausus) in its mother's womb, it supposes that the baptismal water can not reach the body of the child. When, however, this seems possible, even with the aid of an instrument, Benedict XIV (Syn. Diaec., vii, 5) declares that midwives should be instructed to confer conditional baptism. The Ritual further says that when the water can flow upon the head of the infant the sacrament is to be administered absolutely; but if it can be poured only on some other part of the body, baptism is indeed to be conferred, but it must be conditionally repeated in case the child survives its birth, It is to be noted that in these last two cases, the rubric of the Ritual supposes that the infant has partly emerged from the womb. For if the fetus was entirely enclosed, baptism is to be repeated conditionally in all cases (Lehmkuhl, n, 61).

 

Church of Christ and Anglican....