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DEAD MEANS DEAD!

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Claudia_T, May 21, 2006.

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  1. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Here's the reference for 'Dead know nothing'...

    Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

    I guess the writer of Ecclesiastes had more inspiration in his tales than Jesus did with His?

    Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    Looks to me that both wicked and good know an awful lot?

    SMM
     
    #81 SpiritualMadMan, May 23, 2006
  2. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    That parable of Lazarus and the rich man is just that-- a parable using symbolic language.

    and NO Solomon knew what Jesus knows and that was why Jesus said Lazarus was ASLEEP in the tomb.

    and Jesus also said Mt:10:28: And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to DESTROY both soul and body in hell.

    One must learn to gather up all the Bible verses on a given subject and compare scripture with scripture.

    Dont just pick out that parable and assume that from that you will be able to build an entire doctrine around it.


    Mk:8:24: And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.

    I hope now that none of you are going to insist that trees can walk.... or that men are actually "like trees".

    and I hope you wont build and entire doctrine on this one:

    "For the stone shall cry out of the wall, and the beam out of the timber shall answer it." Hab. 2:11 (2 Kings 14:9) (Judges 9:7-15) (Gen.4:10).

    Its just like the subject of grace... you have to learn to do something besides pick out verses you like and ignore the rest of them... you have to gather all the verses on a given subject and put them all together to form a picture of what God is trying to say to you.


    Maybe this will help you

    Parable of Lazarus and the Rich man

    [ May 23, 2006, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
    #82 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  3. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    So, Solomon, a mere man, knew as much as Jesus?

    Hmmmmm You either think *very* highly of Solomon or *very* lowly of Jesus...

    But, there are in completely different leagues.

    SMM
     
    #83 SpiritualMadMan, May 23, 2006
  4. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I already told you Jesus said Lazarus was asleep in the grave and I am quite surprised you feel that the book of Ecclesiastes was not inspired by the Holy Spirit and are trying to pit one book of the Bible against the other.
     
    #84 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  5. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Holding my tongue... erased what I said. Or I should say Holding my mouse.
     
    #85 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  6. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

    Not, somnambulant. But, D_E_A_D...

    Lazarus, Real person... Did Die... Was raised...

    Rich Man, Real Person... Had five Brothers

    Hell, Real Place...

    Abraham's Bosom... Now in Heaven...

    SMM
     
    #86 SpiritualMadMan, May 23, 2006
  7. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    I will say though that I certainly would at least hope that you dont actually believe that the people in heaven and the people in hell go around paying visits to each other. :rolleyes:
     
    #87 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  8. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Claudia,

    Your intentional prevarication of the intent of my words is staggering...

    SMM

    Luke 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
     
    #88 SpiritualMadMan, May 23, 2006
  9. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    oh yes, just absolutely staggering
     
    #89 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  10. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Here, let me get you a fan so that you can cool your fevered brow... I would not want you to perchance faint...

    Mike, did you by chance take Drama in High School?

    It seems like every time I turn around you are blowing everything I say way out of proportion and making like you are being "persecuted" by me.LOL!
    (I guess I have to learn not to bother talking to this guy since he is going to keep on pulling this same old stunt...over and over again)
     
    #90 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    So how many rules do you wish to break before you are suspended Claudia.
    RE: Kamaroso's post: A couple posts later you will read this:
    Two or three long posts of his took up a of band with not allowing others to post.
    2. You have been warned about long posts several time and continue to ignore the warnings of various moderators.
    3. Your long posts often contain information that is not referenced as to where it came from.
    4. What you did in this particular post is cross-posting, which is against the rules. A link to another post would have been all right. But you can't post the same post in various places.
    5. If you don't understand the rules I suggest you re-read them for you own benefit.
    DHK
     
    #91 DHK, May 23, 2006
  12. SpiritualMadMan

    SpiritualMadMan New Member

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    Claudia,

    You have intentionally ignored the issue where you stated that Jesus said plainly that Lazarus was sleeping.

    Inferring that he was not really dead...

    I came back with a Scripture where Jesus is quoted as Plainly telling them that Lazarus was dead...

    You immediately change the line of reasoning to avoid the issue that you have in fact misrepresented what Jesus said...

    BTW, in case you didn't know...

    pre·var·i·cate - To stray from or evade the truth; equivocate

    No drama involved except that of a drama queen. :D

    SMM
     
    #92 SpiritualMadMan, May 23, 2006
  13. mman

    mman New Member

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    If that's meant to be an agrument, the force of it escapes me.

    First of all, a parable is something that could happen or did happen.

    Second, there is nothing in the story that says it is a parable.

    Third, you claim it is a parable, because you want it to be a parable, otherwise, your whole belief system on this matter is wrong. Otherwise, I have no doubt that you would accept it.

    I applaud your approach to find all the verses that deal with the subject, however, you cannot simply wave your hand and make this account of the rich man and Lazarus go away by claiming it is a parable using symbolic language. All parables use symbolic language, otherwise, they would only be a pointless irrelevant story.

    Find one other parable that could not be true. - If you can do this, then your argument would make more sense.

    Find one other parable that uses names and real people.
     
    #93 mman, May 23, 2006
  14. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    If you want to base your entire doctrine on what happens when you die on the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, throwing out all the dozens of Bible verses on the subject, then that's up to you.

    The apostle Paul clearly understood that he, would sleep in the grave until the second coming of Christ:

    “For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure [death] is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day : and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His [Christ’s] appearing.” (II Tim. 4: 6- 8).

    Paul and Martha both knew that not until the resurrection of the last day, at the second coming of Christ, would he receive the reward of eternal life and be given the gift of immortality.

    [ May 23, 2006, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
    #94 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Well when Jesus said Lazarus sleepeth He could of been talking about his soul but when pressed Jesus said Lazarus is "dead" then He could of meant his body, for you could say either one and be right depends on which part you are talking about and I for one do not know which part Jesus was speaking of. I do know his body was dead. I believe his soul was asleep.

    blessings,

    BBob
     
    #95 Brother Bob, May 23, 2006
  16. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    Brother Bob,


    But the dead who are sleeping in their graves HEAR HIS VOICE...

    John 5:28,29
    "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth."

    1Thes:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

    Jn:11:43: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

    Acts:9:40: But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up.
     
    #96 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  17. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    The Witch of Endor

    Well I must say I am surprised that nobody has brought up the Witch of Endor.

    Saul had wanted an answer from God and when he didnt get it he resorted to sorcery and trying to talk to the dead.

    Some actually believe that Samuel was there talking to Saul, but the Bible itself gives us sufficient reason to draw a very different conclusion.

    Let's say that Samuel was in heaven.. well then he had to have been summoned there, either by God or by Satan, right?

    We surely cant believe Satan had power to call Samuel out of heaven. And we sure cannot believe God Himself would honor the incantations of this witch by sending Samuel there. God already refused to speak with Saul. Samuel 28:6.

    and the message Saul got led him to ruin, besides that. "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the Lord, even against the word of the Lord, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to inquire of it; and inquired not of the Lord: therefore He slew him, and turned the kingdom unto David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13, 14.

    Saul wasnt talking in reality with Samuel, he was talking to Satan.

    "When they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?" Isaiah 8:19.

    The Greeks and the Romans tried to communicate with the dead... the Oracles. When God's people apostasized they did the same thing...

    "Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor." Numbers 25:1-3.

    "They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead" (Psalm 106:28); that is, sacrifices that had been offered to the dead.

    God said to Israel: "The soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set My face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people." Leviticus 20:6.


    Well now thik about this, WHY would it be so very terrible to talk to the dead if they wer up there in heaven watching us? shoulodnt we want to seek them for counsel?

    If the spirits of the dead are hovering around their friends and loved ones on earth, why should'nt they be permitted to communicate with them, to warn them against evil, or to comfort them in sorrow?


    The reason it is so terrible is that the dead arent IN heaven... Satan is impostoring the dead through his demonic spirits.

    and what Christians need to realize is that the Bible warns that in these last days there will be false miracles... such as the Virgin Mary supposedly speaking to people... the DEAD Virgin Mary.

    To think this topic isnt important is to make a "grave" error.

    [ May 23, 2006, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]
     
    #97 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
  18. Heavenly Pilgrim

    Heavenly Pilgrim New Member

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    Hi Eric B,
    Here is the problem with such a categorization. It appears from what I see of this author in this short piece that he starts from a presupposition that there is a separation between the soul and spirit. This begs the question. We are trying to determine IF in fact there is a cognizant difference. When we start our argumentation by assuming to be true what we are trying to discover if in fact it is true, we have not discovered anything.

    What do you see that I may be missing that sets forth evidence as to the distinction between the soul and spirit of man by this author, other than what he manufactrures for his own purposes?

    The author has stated that our “humane emotions are enabled by our intellect.” The humane emotions are from our "pleasure appetite" and cause inner movement within the psyche. They are our responses to what we perceive as "good" or "bad".” Then he links “the utilitarian emotions with our reason" [i.e. soul]
    I see the author then by default separating the reason from the intellect. Am I missing something here that you see, or not? Am I correct in assuming that the author indeed separates the reason from the intellect? I would believe, at this time anyway, that our reason and intellect are inseparably tied, and to try and separate them cannot be anything short of a manufactured devise to ‘prove’ a preconceived notion that the soul is separate from the spirit. His proof does not move beyond the confines of his own imaginative device IMO.
     
    #98 Heavenly Pilgrim, May 23, 2006
  19. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Claudia it says the hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Lord and they that hear shall live. ( dead in sin, the soul, for the soul that sinneth shall die. The body is already got death pronounced on it from Adam.)

    Marvel not for the hour is coming when all that are in the Grave shall hear his voice and come forth unto them that have done good the resurrection of life unto them that have done evil the resurrection of damnation. (doesn't say asleep. I know that are scripture that refers to the dead being asleep though for there is a sleep of death but the first Scripture I posted here say "the dead" and its talking about the soul that had sinned.

    Apostle Paul said I have a desire to depart for to be with Christ is far better. So if he died he was going to be with Christ. Well we know his body was not so that leaves his soul.

    I would not have you ignorant brethren that you sorry not as others who have no hope, for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, them that are asleep in Jesus will God "bring" with him. The bodies are already here. Has to be the souls. Also, Paul said there is a rest that remaineth for them that love and serve the Lord. I think Paul is at that rest today with Christ and his body is here on earth.

    yes, the dead bodies will hear his voice and come forth and they not any grave going to hold our bodies down.
     
    #99 Brother Bob, May 23, 2006
  20. Claudia_T

    Claudia_T New Member

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    This book is not Copyrighted...

    From the Book "Bible Readings for the Home"

    Departing and Being with Christ

    When writing to the Philippians, what desire did the apostle Paul express?
    "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better." Phil. 1:23.

    What were the two conditions between which the apostle was thus in difficulty?
    "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phil. 1:21.

    What does he mean by the words "to depart?"
    "The time of my departure is at hand." 2 Tim. 4:6.

    What was sure to the cause of Christ, whether Paul lived or died?
    "Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death." Phil. 1:20.

    In what other words does he express the same sentiment?
    "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain." Phil. 1:21.
    NOTE. - Gain, not to himself, but to the cause of Christ, as stated in the verse before.

    What, then, inclined Paul to the side of life?
    "Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you." Phil. 1:24.

    What inclined him to prefer to depart, or lay down this life?
    "To depart and to be with Christ, which is far better." Phil. 1:23.

    How long after his departure before he would be with Christ?
    "For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thess. 4:16, 17. See 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Tim.4:7, 8.

    If none go to be with Christ till after the resurrection, how would it have been better for Paul, so far as he was concerned, to depart then, rather than live on?
    As no cognizance is taken of the lapse of time, after a person becomes unconscious in death (Eccl. 9:5; Ps. 146:4), though 2,000 years should elapse before Paul's resurrection, it would seem to him but the twinkling of an eye.
     
    #100 Claudia_T, May 23, 2006
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