DEAD MEANS DEAD!

I am quite curious to hear about your answer to the following question because I find the contradiction there.


[qb]Originally posted by Briony-Gloriana:
Mercy please Claudia, these novella posts of yours just mean I scroll on by....just give us the summary if you want folk to read the posts.

And no my soul aint dead when I die,it is immortal unlike my physical remains. My soul will not sleep either, it will be judged as seen fit by my Divine and Dear Master.

At the second coming, my soul will be reunited with my body and will be remade with no imperfection in order to reside in Paradise in the presence of the Beautific Vision or be cast out. </font>[/QUOTE]Dear Eliyahu, I suspect I have a different outlook to the confines of time. When I die, I will undergo a particular judgement(Heb. 9:27, Rom.14:12, John 5:22) at the time of my death thence to heaven, hell or purgatory as a cleansing prior to admittance to heaven. (Matt.7:2,5:26, Apoc.21:27, Wis.5:15, 2 Mach. 12:43-46)

At the Second Coming when there will be the Final Judgement (Matt.24:14,27,29,31,36, Acts 1:11, Apoc.22:12) and the end of the world as we know it, those who are not cast out will be reunited with their remade bodies to people the Beautific Vision(1 Cor.15:22,52-53,2 Cor.4:14,John 5:28-29, Phil.3:21, Job 19:25, Apoc.21:4, Matt.13:43).

B-G

 

(No Claudia; I meant like the following when His deciple wanted to bury his father Jesus was talking about 2 kinds of death, the natural death of the body and those that were Spiritually dead.)

[quote} Claudia;
11: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
[/quote]

("Also", means something has already been quickened.}


KJMatt.08
"21": And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.

"22": But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.


(quote) claudia;
How long after his departure before he would be with Christ?(/quote)

(To be with Christ is far better. Claudia if it was when The lord was going to return in the resurrection then why would Paul say "depart now" there would of been no need to make that statement if he didn't mean at death for he had preached all his Christian and even Mary had stated they would be with Him in the resurrection. Why would he say to be with Christ is far better if he was meant to lay in the grave, it wouldn't make sense to me.)

1 Thessalonians, chapter 4
"14": For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

( If God is going to bring them with them then there must be a part of us over there where He is. "This day shalt thou be with me in paradise" that is where the beggar was also. "The souls that were under the altar of God" teaches us that souls are indeed in Heaven,)


James, chapter 1
20": For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

"21": Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.

"22": But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

1 Peter, chapter 4
"19": Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.
(Here we see the Scripture talking about something other than the body.)

Bless,

BBob

[ May 24, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

Romans, chapter 8

6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10: And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

(Saying you can't worship God in the flesh but only in the Spirit for the Lord don't dwell in the flesh.)

 

We live in a fleshly world. While we are here we must do everything to please God. Remember He created this earthly world for us. We must therefore do everything in this fleshly body to praise and worship God while we are here but for a short time. Our lives reflect God in us. You can sit here and debate God and the Spirit all you want but you must remember, God put us on this earth for a reason. We may not understand what that reason is but while we are here we must find the reason our God loves us so much. remember He died in earthly flesh; but really Christ did not die because He was part of the Father and part of the Fathers' spirit. So Christ is here and everyday He leads us in the path of rightousness if only you will but follow the Word which is your blueprint in life. Worship, pray, paise and love God with all your heart and you will find your place with Him. there is no misunderstanding just God and the Son. God lets you live in the flesh so live for God in the flesh. it is that simple. the profits of old lived and died for the promise and were never able to grasp it but we have a chance to grasp that promise because of Jesus.

 

Claudia,

Your assumption that just because a believer believes the dead in Christ are awake with Christ in Spiritual realms equates to them taking part in seances or seeking out mediums requires only one response...

 

Claudia, If your mother was into automatic writing, she was involved in the occult. The Catholic Church and others equate that with witchcraft and divination. If I did that, I would probably get kicked out of church. In the past, people were persecuted for those activities.

Furthermore, just because we Protestants believe the dead are in heaven and aware of their surroundings doesn't mean we get messages from spirits, demonic or otherwise. As I said before, we're not a bunch of New Age spirit channelers.

By the way, Claudia, Benedict Arnold sends his regards.

 

Of course I do not imagine that all of you sit around channeling the spirits, and I did not say that. What I said is that if you believe the dead are in heaven, which they are not, then you open your self up for deception.

This is because as it nears the second coming of Christ there will be more and more manifestations of demonic deceptions. Such as receiving messages from the Virgin Mary.

Now I certainly am aware that most Protestants wouldnt believe a message from the Virgin Mary but this is going to happen in various ways. People are experiencing the Apostle Paul, other Bible characters and dead loved ones manifesting himself and telling them messages.

These things will increase as times proceeds. If you already believe the dead are up there in heaven then they can hover around you and speak to you. This is why even on televesion, in movies, Tv shows... psychic mediums.... etc we see more and more talking about messages from the dead. Even on the Larry King Show he has a lady that frequently comes on there, I believe her name is Sylvia Brown, and people call in and ask about their dead relatives and this "psychic" tells them a message from their loved one.


1Tm:4:1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

These "spirits" often tell people that God's 10 Commandment Law is no longer in effect.

Isaiah 8:
19: And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
20: To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

You are mistaken about the Catholic Church, for Ignatius Loyola, the first Jesuit, often spoke to "dead saints" or at least he thought he did. There is NO DIFFERENCE between that and the Occult. Loyola was into Pantheism as well.

Teilhard de Chardin, Jesuit, was known as "Father of the New Age Movement" ... he is a hero of New Age Spiritualism.

New Agers believe in the theory of evolution. Reincarnation is actually based on the idea of evolution... man 'evolves' through lifetime after lifetime in endless successive incarnations until they finally reach perfection. Eastern Mysticism teaches that the lower forms of life evolve into higher forms of life and that eventually all men will evolve back into godhood or the 'Source from which they came'.

The Jesuit, PierreTeilhard de Chardin, (sometimes referred to as the Father of the New Age Movement), eagerly investigated paleontology, which is the study of prehistoric animal fossils, which undoubtedly led to his later obsession with the theory of evolution. Spiritualism teaches that man is the creature of progression; that it is his destiny from birth to progress or to evolve, even to eternity, toward the godhead. In like manner, Teilhard believed that the more man became like his 'true self' (otherwise known as the Higher Self) -the more he evolved into 'what God is'.

The idea behind this theory is that man was already God and that it was essential that he go back to the Source from whence he came, to find his 'True Self.' He needed to evolve into the 'Ultra Human' or into the God-man to whom Teilhard was referring. Once man reaches this state, he is presumed to have achieved what is known as 'Cosmic Consciousness.' And so the 'Father' of the New Age Movement was deeply involved in the theory of evolution.


The entire theory is SORCERY AND THE OCCULT. It is the belief of Witchcraft.


There is a reason why the Catholic Church finds it necessary to continually do EXORCISM.

Rv:18:2: And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

4: And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

</font>[/QUOTE]That's why people need to have the gift of discernment, so they won't be fooled by charlatans, spirtiual or otherwise. Back in the 1600s, Emmanuel Swedenborg had out of the body experiences and he claimed to have talked with the Apostle Paul. He supposedly told Swedenberg he didn't write that stuff in the Bible. That should have sent alarms off right then and there, because I Timothy 16 says that the Bible is God-breathed. In a more recent out of the body experience, someone met spirits who told him that there is no hell. Again, that should have set off a bunch of alarms, because Jesus spoke of hell at least as often as He did about heaven.

It's not just the spirit world you have to worry about, either. I went to a church whose pastor told the congregation, "This is your real family!" That is something the Moonies tell their followers. That set off a bunch of alarms.

In 1999, I met a man who was a follower of Herbert Armstrong. He told me that he doesn't believe in the Trinity because the Trinity limits God to only three Persons and there should be more Persons in the Godhead than that. He said that on Judgment Day, he and certain other specially selected people will become members of the Godhead like the Father and the Son are. He said it's God's plan for mankind. I said, "But Satan wanted to become God." He brushed that off by saying that it wasn't offered to the angels, only to humans. The things he said set off a whole bunch of alarms. Methinks he will have a very rude awakening on Judgment Day.

It's not just the spirit world, those in the flesh can be extremely deceptive.

 

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Bible teaches that now we are clothed with an earthly body in which we groan--it is subject to disease, pain (ask my wife), infirmities of all kinds, and eventually death itself.
At death the body is buried and goes into the grave where if it lies there long enough decays into dust. However the soul goes to Heaven (or Hell), as the case may be.
At the resurrection (there are two of them) the body will put on immortality. The Scriptures I have posted you plainly show that soul puts on immortality. It puts on an immortal and glorified body. It does not put on a body in a vegetative state, neither is it a body in a vegetative state that is raised. The body that is raised has life. The life comes from the soul, the soul already been in heaven, in the presence of Christ, as is taught by Paul.
To be absent from the body is to present with Lord.
We groan in this body. The body is temporary. As soon as we lose this body we go and be with the Lord, and there await our resurrected bodies to be like Jesus. We are spirit beings. Someday we will receive our celestian bodies, but not until the resurrection takes place.
DHK

 

Actually, Armstrongism says that all the resurrected righteous become members of the Godhead, (that is how they interpret the resurrected existence being discussed here) and they are nearly universalist at that. Most of the nonbelievers today are "not yet called", and will be called at the Great White Throne (which is not necessarily for sentencing to the lake of fire). It is only those who refuse then, or who were called now and refused who end up cast in the fire. So they are not saying that only their leaders will become God, but rather nearly all of mankind.
Still, yes, this is highly aberrant teaching, and the works-orientation is combined with this "promise" of divinity, and used to motivate people to do the work of tithing, keeping all the days, etc. and was one of the things I held back off of when I loosely followed the movement.

 

Claudia;
In the first place I am not among those that believe the souls are walking around Heaven. I think they are asleep in Jesus Christ but for sure in Heaven but at rest. I don't think the souls have no knowledge of what is taking place on earth for they would see some of their lost children and others in trouble and it would not be a "rest". Now, concerning the body being dead. It was once appointed unto man to die and from the day we are born in this life on earth we began to die (perish) and to that there is no excape. The only way the body will ever be raised from a dead state of sin is in the resurrection but there is a part of man that is "made alive in Christ and therefore it has to be the soul". There are Scripture telling us of souls in Heaven and God is no respect of person and if one Christian's soul goes to Heaven so do the rest. The answers you have from others such as DHK, Jfox1 and others have told you close to my beliefs. I do not believe the souls are going to be a part of the Godhead or do anything but rest until the redemption of the body and then both soul and body will take a Heavenly flight and meet the Lord in the Cloud and He will take them to Heaven for ever. I don't have time right now to get all the Scripture together but I have already posted them in the past. What you say about the body being dead and the Spirit alive is exactly what I have been saying. The body is dead because of sin and cannot be redeemed without death. "Thou fool, how can that be quickened except it first die". Well the same thing was true with the soul "the soul that sinneth shall die" and therefore is why Jesus told His deciple to let the "dead bury the dead". So, the soul was dead in sin and had to be made alive in Christ Jesus (born again) in this life for there is not repentance after death. Then the inward man (soul) is already put on Christ and when the death comes to the body it will leave the body for a rest in Heaven until "them that are asleep in Jesus will God bring with Him". He is bringing them to be reunited with a body as DHK said that had been resurrected a Spiritual body. It will be the same person but made over new, the same clay but the potter will make it over new, for "ever bone shall come to its bone". After the church has been reunited with their souls and both soul and body go to Heaven then God will pass judgement on the Devil, his angels, those that work abomination and those that make a lie. The unbelievers and death and Hell. Sorry I didn't go and get the Scripture but you know I can and where they are. I know before you even read this that we disagree for I have read your post, but my life is based on when I die that God will send angels and take my soul to Heaven where I will rest until the redemption of my body from a corruptil to an incorruptile body, from a natural to a Spiritual, from weakness unto Glory and as we have in this life had a Glory about us when we die that Glory is gone but it is not to be compared with the Glory that shall be reveiled in us. As Paul said, I have a crown laid up for me but not me only but all them that love and serve the Lord. Blessings,

BBob