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Featured Adam versus believers

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Oct 29, 2020.

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  1. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    My question is in no way hypothetical so all these cautions are unnecessary and in my opinion, a needless distraction from the subject.

    Scriptures are clear Adam died as a result of sinning. I am examining that truth as revealed in scriptures in greater detail without no speculation whatsoever
     
    #121 Agent47, Nov 10, 2020
  2. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    So God created a spiritually dead creature in His image?
     
    #122 Agent47, Nov 10, 2020
  3. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    What did we have BEFORE that point in time seeing we never had eternal life?

    Would you say Adam was spiritually dead before he sinned?
     
    #123 Agent47, Nov 10, 2020
  4. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    spiritually, dead, alive

    Is the Hebrew and or Greek for those words used relative to one another anywhere in scripture?
     
    #124 percho, Nov 10, 2020
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No. I wouldn't say he was spiritually dead prior to his transgression.

    Before Adam sinned he was in fellowship with God and "upright". This is how people have defined "spiritual life". It is relational.

    But I also believe Adam did not have a spiritual life of his own (ontological). God is and always has been the Life, not Adam.

    So I would say that before Adam sinned he was flesh and without sin, in communion with God. After Adam sinned he remained flesh, his eyes were opened, physical death became certain, and he was no longer in communion with God but a slave to sin and death.
     
    #125 JonC, Nov 10, 2020
  6. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    This is the most confusing response I have seen. Maybe it’s me.

    Let’s not talk about how “people have defined” and let’s talk about YOU.
    “Spiritual life” is relational you say. Is this a belief you hold?

    How was the relational “spiritual life” Adam had different from what a believer has?

    saying God is life is not different from saying God is Love. It’s a philosophical or metaphorical statement meaning God is the origin of life and full of love respectively. The statement is unhelpful in this context.
     
    #126 Agent47, Nov 11, 2020
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    What does this say?

    " Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." ( John 5:24 ).
     
    #127 Dave G, Nov 11, 2020
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  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Define "spiritual life".

    That is the biggest problem here. People use extra-biblical terms as if they were in the Bible because they sound "spiritual". But they often do not define these terms.

    If you are able to define "spiritual life" then I can give you a clear answer.
     
    #128 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Sorry Sir, but I thought I already distinguished between Adam's relationship with God, not under the New Covenant, and a redeemed individual"s "eternal life" relationship. Remember when Adam was created with a relationship with God, the Lamb of God had already been chosen to restore the fallen to a relationship of eternal life. Thus God at least "anticipated" Adam's relationship would not be eternal, before Adam was created.
     
    #129 Van, Nov 11, 2020
  10. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Romans 1:18-32.
    Romans 5:12.
    Romans 5:19.
    Ephesians 2:1-3.
    Ephesians 4:17-19.

    Would you say that people were spiritually alive before God caused them to be born again, or spiritually dead in their trespasses and sins?
    To you, what is it to be spiritually dead, or "dead in trespasses and sins"?

    Finally,
    what Scriptures do you see as describing what being "born again" actually means?
     
    #130 Dave G, Nov 11, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2020
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  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Not at all. There is an order of events. It does seem that you have a problem understanding this.

    God created Adam and Eve His image and good, Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 1:31.

    Genesis 3:22 is result of Adam and Eve disobeying, Genesis 2:17, Genesis 3:2-3.
     
    #131 37818, Nov 11, 2020
  12. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    I will work with whatever definition you subscribe to. I assure you whatever you believe eternal life to be it has zero bearing on the questions raised. As such, quibbling about definition of terms is nothing but derailing the post.

    With that out of the way, please respond to the question.
     
    #132 Agent47, Nov 11, 2020
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Adam was not spiritually dead before the fall but nor was he spiritually alive?

    What are you saying?
     
    #133 Agent47, Nov 11, 2020
  14. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    explain how these verses support your beliefs right after sharing them on the subject
     
    #134 Agent47, Nov 11, 2020
  15. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Does the death and resurrection of Jesus restore man to pre-Adamic state,or does it go beyond that and add something else?
     
    #135 Agent47, Nov 11, 2020
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The only thing close to "spiritual life" that I can find in the Bible is Chriat as the "Life", "Christ in is", "sealed by the Spirit", Christ as "a life giving spirit" and bring "born of the Spirit".

    So using the definition of Spiritual life as "in Christ" and "sealed by the Spirit" I have to say these are not descriptive of pre-Fall Adam.
     
    #136 JonC, Nov 11, 2020
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Before the fall, Adam and Eve were good sinless people. They also did not have God's knowledge of good and evil. God being infinitely good. Adam and Eve were only finite beings.
     
    #137 37818, Nov 11, 2020
  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Read them carefully and tell me how they don't.
    I figure the words should do all the speaking that is necessary.

    If you disagree, then I understand.
     
    #138 Dave G, Nov 11, 2020
  19. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Six hour warning
    This thread will be closed no sooner than 10 am EST / 7 am PST
     
    #139 Salty, Nov 12, 2020
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Agent47, here is what I believe scripture teaches, the death of Christ and His resurrection did NOT restore humankind in general or any individual to the pre-Adamic state of being un-separated from God. However, His sacrifice did provide the means by which individuals can be restored to the pre-Adamic state of being un=separated from God. Only when God transfers a person from the realm of darkness (separated from God) to the kingdom of His Beloved Son (together with Christ) is a person made alive (eternally per the New Covenant). As I said before, Adam did not have the promise of God for eternal life, that is an added feature of the New Covenant. You can find dozens of references to life eternal or eternal life in the New Testament, including John 3:16.
     
    #140 Van, Nov 12, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
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