Featured Predeterminism vs fatalism

The idea is that IN him we are chosen. Before the Foundation this was the plan .When do we get IN him ?
Eph 1
13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Is it possible in any sense that we were IN him or even chosen IN him before we were IN him ?
Eph 2
12That at that time ye were WITHOUT Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and STRANGERS from the covenants of promise, HAVING NO !!!!!! HOPE , and without God in the world:

13But now IN Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

According to Rom 8.23 when do get adopted ?

 

Spiritually when born again, and physically when glorified!

 

No we recieve the spirit OF adoption as an earnest . THE Adoption is the actual thing .
Rom 8 .23And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body .
I realise calvinism teaches the western American idea of Adoption but thats opposite to what the bible actually says .
We become a child of God through the new birth not Adoption. John 1 .12 .12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
So eph 1.5 hasn't happened yet . Its what a person who gets in christ is predestined to .To be conformed to his image .

 

Solid post and you have correctly identified a lack of study as a main culprit

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I realise this is the post hoc rationalization because the system demands this to be the case otherwise it doesn't work for calvinsm . Thats why we hear the " already not yet " stock answers .
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

 

15For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the SPIRIT OF !!! adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

16The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Which we became a child of God through the new birth . John 1.12
We get the SPIRIT OF !!! adoption . Which is the Guarentee until the redemption of the body which IS the Adoption.

 

What is it about Ephesians 2 that you think he's ignoring?
Ephesians 2:11-22?

It speaks of Gentiles being grafted in, similar to Romans 11:13-32.

But let's not ignore it, Barry.
Rather, let's emphasize it:

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved )" ( Ephesians 2:4-5 ).

" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
9 not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

We are His workmanship...purposefully created in Christ Jesus, Barry.

Please see Romans 9:22-24.
Believers are the vessels of mercy, afore prepared unto glory.

They were created in Christ and chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world ( Ephesians 1:4-5 )...
Scripture reinforcing and acting in concert with other Scriptures.

The redemption of the body occurs later.
We wait for that.

But according to Romans 8:15-16 we as believers have already received the Spirit of adoption...and we are the children of God.
See also Galatians 4:4-7.

I agree.

 

It does if your predestined to the Adoption as I believe. The Adoption is the redemption of the body. This means predestination is not to be converted.

 

Eph 1
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

This saying that we are pre destined to the Adoption AFTER we believe. ( All those in Him are ahead of time destined to the Adoption, Glorification)This is the basis for biblical eternal security and not the reformed P nonsense in TULIP .

 

Meaning Predestination has nothing to do with the idea that we were predestined to be Converted. We are predestined AFTER we believe to glorification. Rom 8 .23

 

I would have had some difficulty as well, until I read some prominent authors recently.

Basically, the premise that I have seen is that "predestination" in God's word is never actually to salvation...
But that it always describes what happens to someone after they have, by their own free will, accepted Christ as Saviour.

In other words,
The argument, as I understand it, is that being "predestinated" refers to being conformed to the image of Christ ( Romans 8:29 ), and to our being adopted as children ( Ephesians 1:5 ) as well as to service and our receiving a glorified body ( the first resurrection )...
But that God's choice of the sinner to salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13 ) is never actually to salvation.

It's to Christian service and to the benefits of being a child of God.
The choice of us as men to either accept or reject Christ is still left up to us, but the rest is left up to God.

As an example,
I'll use the analogy of eternal life as a doorway:

According to what I see "Traditionalism" / "Provisionism" teaching,
God opens the door by offering salvation through Christ to all...
He then allows us as sinners to either stick our foot in the doorway, or leave it out.
But when we stick our foot in, He grabs it and keeps it there ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).
"Once Saved, Always Saved".

That is what I was taught growing up in the Independent Baptist circles I was in after I believed on Christ.

 

Actually I see them as the same thing. Fate is always determined by God or in some beliefs by the stars the end result is always the same. It means that the future is fixed and there is nothing anyone can do about it according to Calvinism and God never changes His mind. I'm not say some things are set and can't be changed because there are some things that are prophecy. The term fate is defined;
"FATE, n. [L. fatum, from for, fari, to speak, whence fatus.]
1. Primarily, a decree or word pronounced by God; or a fixed sentence by which the order of things is prescribed. Hence, inevitable necessity; destiny depending on a superior cause and uncontrollable. According to the Stoics, every event is determined by fate."
.There is no doubt that fate exist in real life and God is the cause of those things. To deny it is to deny God's power no matter how much Calvinist dislike the term. IMO Calvinism is fatalism because everything depends on the non resistant ability of God. In there own words they claim nothing happens with out God's ability to make it so.
For my self I have to admit that somethings are predetermined but no where in scripture is it ever said that man has no control over his own destiny. Man clearly has a choice if not we are all doomed. Humans are a product of God's love. We are not toys or puppets. God want's and deserves our love and in order to have our love He has given us a Choice. You see puppets have no love to give they just do what the strings pull out of them. This is not love. Love is freely given not forced. With out the ability to choose to love. Love cannot exist
MB

 

Fatalism sees creation as an unfeeling force, an evolutionary source of energy whose rules determine every action and reaction.

Predeterminism, in relation to the Creator, God, recognizes that God, sovereignly, ordains according to the plans that He has established. God knows the plans He has made for us. All the plans He has made are based upon His holy character and attributes.

God actively works out His plan because His plan is good and right. This is much different than the idea that an evolutionary force has set the gears of the law of nature into motion and has left these laws to determine all that happens according to the force.

If a believer cannot see the difference between the two, that person is short sighted and ignorant of the attributes of God.

 

I agree.

It should be a comfort to those who have believed,
knowing that God's plan for their very existence was one of His glory and their salvation and blessing...
and not one of being left in their sins to experience His eternal wrath and punishment.

To me,
The difference between "pre-determinism" ( election and predestination ) and "fatalism", is essentially this:


Pre-determinism ( dunno why, but I don't prefer that term; I much more like the Biblical terms I described above ) is resigning one's life to God's purposes and wisdom.
Fatalism is resigning one's life to "whatever will be, will be", with no one at the helm of our lives outside of ourselves.