When DId We Lose the Creator?

BROTHER GLEN

I have always believed in creation by a creator God. I never questioned my belief in God as everything in the physical as well as the spiritual world has a designer. My question is when did we stop believing in the great designer? When were the foundations laid for these other beliefs that limit God or deny his existence altogether? Is this some new thing that has raised its head in the last 500 years? I know where it comes from because I believe in God who is good there is also Satan who is evil. Man has always had this thought from early creation "Let us make a name for ourself" and built a tower to the heavens to declare the same. Why didn't the early church fathers hold to these views? All they could do was to look into the starlit sky at night and stand in awe at his magnificence and glory! The only written words were those that were left to them by those who were priviledge to see his majesty down through the ages.

Isaiah 6:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

(Knowledge is not determined by a "show of hands". Even though the majority of people believe something, that does not make it true. The majority today do not believe in Noah's flood, 2Pe 3:4. It was so in Noah's day also, but the unbelievers all drowned! Many fervently believe in evolution and try to compromise the scriptures with it. This verse stands as a stark warning to those who do not try everything through God's Word. Isa 8:20 ... John Gill)

Psalms 139: 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well...
Brother Glen

[ March 11, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: Administrator ]

 

BARBARIAN

The concept of a "Designer" is a relatively modern invention. It exists in
some medieval writings, in the Caballah, and in Masonic works, as well as in
the writings and drawings of William Blake. Some Gnostic invocations refer
to an "architect of the universe", but the architect is, fittingly, an
inferior being, a demiurge, not the true Creator of all things. The idea of
God the Designer is most obvious Blake's drawing of God using a divider to
measure out His creation.
www.onlinekunst.de/november/ BlakeGodArch.jpg
The notion of "design" limits God precisely as the Gnostics chose to limit
Him, by implying that He was unable to create de Novo, but could only plan
as any other limited being would do.

Early church fathers like Augustine noted that God's creation must have had
some sort of evolution and pointed out that a literal reading of Genesis was
logically absurd. Others disagreed about evolution. But none of them, as
far as I can see, thought that God had to sit down and figure out how
creation would have to work. This is why "design" is such an insult to
God; it implies that He is not omnipotent. I'm sure that this isn't what
the people at the Discovery Institute want to believe about God. But that
is what they are saying.

When did we lose the Creator? We haven't yet. Even if some people want to
demote Him to designer.

 

HELEN

Hi Glen,

I responded to Barbarian’s ideas about God not being a designer in
the Irreducible Complexity thread.

Barry and I were at dinner with some charming Christian brothers and
sisters this last week and one of them was talking about this very
thing. He brought up the fact that there seems to be, in the Bible
itself, the first mention of actual atheism: Psalm 14:1 – The
fool says in his heart, ‘There is no God.’

Now, the fact that this person says it in his heart does not mean there
was any actual atheist group per se, but it does indicate that the
rebellion against God did not stop with the deification of some of the
post-flood leaders (later to become the gods of the various
mythologies), but that it finally extended, by a thousand years at least
before Christ, to the denial of God Himself as a being in existence at
all.

Although there are a number of theologians who, rightly or wrongly,
disagree with some of the conclusions Hislop reached, his research into
the linguistic and historic roots of apostasy stands as a landmark work
in Christian literature. His initial aim was to show that Roman
Catholicism was paganistic to the core, and in the process he
accomplished much more than that. His book, “Two Babylons” is now on
the net here:

http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm

and I highly recommend it. I think, difficult as it is to follow in
some areas, it will help answer a lot of questions about the initial
apostasy.

Just as a personal thought here, I am thinking that maybe the initial
apostasy which promoted some humans to deification in other men’s eyes
was the first step towards atheism. It could not long remain
unthinkable that if these ‘deities’ were supposed to be responsible for
the earth and life itself, that the entire concept of a deity was
ridiculous. Was this the beginning? Or was it simply the deep-seated
rebellious desire in the heart of fallen man to refuse the concept of
accountability and declare himself the only person to whom he must be
accountable in the long run? Was atheism the product also of some
leaders who did not want to be accountable? In all ways, it is simple
rebellion against God, but it certainly has had some not so simple
consequences!

[ March 11, 2002, 12:41 AM: Message edited by: Administrator ]