Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

[ Ps 58:11 DRV (Ps 59:10 KJV); Ps 78:8 DRV (Ps 79:8 KJV)]

I want to talk about Prevenient Grace from a Catholic point of view. I thought I should start a new thread. If you hang in there with me on this I think you will walk away with more understanding, more food for thought and a better understanding of your own view. This is some of the mechanics of Catholic Soteriology, the Big Picture.

Dividing and Combining

Calvinists divide Romans 1 into two distinct camps. Traditionalists say everything is combined and accomplished in the preaching of the Gospel. I’m sure Traditionalists believe in Grace all the way through but maybe the steps just need to be shown theologically. Arminians I’m not familiar with but it looks like they lay things out correctly. Dr. Roger Olson describes the soul with Prevenient Grace as “Half-Regenerated” which is on the right track. So there’s, sometimes, dividing and combining that we probably would not agree on and some things we do. From the Grace point of view I think understanding Prevenient Grace helps keep everything straight.

Here’s Why: This is one division that needs to be made. Aquinas, 300 years before Luther and Calvin, divided Grace into 2 kinds: Gratuitous (Prevenient) Grace and Sanctifying Grace (STh., I-II q.111). This understanding went back into the early church. The 2nd Council of Orange in 529ad said God’s Grace goes first; it precedes our ability to do anything towards our salvation(Canon 14, Denziger’s #187,384 ). This was to counter the Pelagian Heresy. Also, it said in a similar way that God “Prepares” the “Will” (Canon 4, Denziger’s 177,374; Canon 23, Denziger’s #196,393; Trent, Decree on Justification, Ch 5 & 6, Canons 3,4 Denziger’s #797,1525 & #798, 1526 ). These quotes from Orange II were taken from St. Prosper who was St. Augustine’s prize student and protege. Notice it says grace “Prepares the Will”. This means two things: Man’s Will needs preparing but it also means using the Will in the salvation process is necessary - no denial of Free Will. You don’t prepare something you don’t need. The “Preparing” is the Grace. The church defines Free Will as man’s Will with God’s Grace in it. Sometimes we use the term Free Will in the natural sense (without God’s Grace in it - ex: power to make everyday decisions ). I like to say there is Supernatural Free Will (with God’s Grace) and Natural Free Will (without God’s Grace). Luther and Calvin didn’t make that distinction even though Erasmus and Pighius tried to tell Them. This distinction needs to be made.

The BIG PICTURE
Aquinas used these verses (STh., I-II q.111 a.5):
1 Cor 12: 4-12. - Prevenient Graces (Gratuitous)
1 Cor 12:31 - Describes Division
1 Cor 13:1-13 - Sanctifying Grace (Gratuitous)

All the Gifts of the Holy Ghost in 1 Cor 12 DO NOT SAVE YOU , per se, but Prepare you or stimulate your soul (Trent, Ch 8). Trent calls them “Preparatory Graces”. These graces appear both before and after Justification. I am only going to talk mainly about these graces before Justification right now. Fr Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange, my favorite theologian (this is why my User Name is LaGrange), describes these as “Stimulating Graces”. They move you up to the point of Justification. In the Catholic Church the point of Justification is Baptism (Regeneration)(I don’t want to argue Baptism right now). So, in essence, BOTH Faith and Works alone don’t save you. When you walk up to the Baptismal Font to be Baptized, the intrinsic “Gift of Faith” (Eph 2:8; 1 Cor 12:9) must be present in you but it, by itself, doesn’t save you (Must be Taught before Baptism Matt 28:19). You are regenerated by Baptism. If you are Arminian or a Traditionalist, you too don’t believe you are Justified until you “Accept Christ as your Savior”(Regeneration). Ask yourself: What about all the graces that led you up to that point? The preaching of the Gospel? Maybe the first time you were stimulated by the Faith was watching a Christian Show on TV; maybe a Billy Graham Crusade Rerun? This probably happened multiple times before you walked the aisle. All this was Prevenient Grace prior to the point of Accepting Christ as your Savior. The Calvinists sense this and teach that grace must precede anything in our movement toward Christ which is correct but they don’t make this division between 1 Cor 12 and 1 Cor 13 so they see all grace as what we would call “Sanctifying Grace” (Regeneration = 1 Cor 13 Grace = Charity = makes us pleasing to God; Habitual Grace; Indwelling) This looks like to Catholics, Arminians and Traditionalists, that you are Saved before you’re Saved. Another reason Calvinists believe this is because they deny the use of Supernatural Free Will. The Intrinsic Grace in Supernatural Free Will we call Actual Grace. It’s “Internal”. It gives “Power” to the Intellect and the Will; it makes the Will Free. The definition of Free Will is a Will containing the Grace (Power) to make a choice toward Christ but “Not the choice itself” (it Enables you). The grace to make the choice itself is called Cooperating Grace (Synergism; Physical Premotion). Before you had the power (Grace) to move towards Christ, you already had the power or ability Not to move toward Christ; to say No. You still have the power to say No after receiving the Grace to move toward Christ. Ultimately, this means you have the ability (enabled) to say Yes or No. This gives man a real choice. Aquinas says that just as man has a Free Will in the natural order it is fitting he should also have a Free Will in the supernatural order (STh., I-II q.113 a.3). These Intrinsic Prevenient and Actual Graces St. Augustine called “Operating Graces” (ex: On Grace & Free Will, Ch 33 (17), 427ad). The final doctrine that needs to be discussed is Total Depravity and how it affects Prevenient Grace and Free Will. We do not believe in Total Depravity as such, however, we do agree that there is nothing we can do (unable), prior to God’s Prevenient and Actual Graces, to move toward Christ. Aquinas says there is some good in man’s nature, therefore some good in his soul, even after Original Sin (STh., I-II q.85 a.2 and a.3)(We were Wounded, not Totally Depraved). This is extremely important because it backs up the “helping” of Grace in the soul (Intellect and Will) rather than the kind of Force, Pull, Drag or Compulsion of the Will that Calvin asserts (Irresisitible Grace). St. Augustine admits this “Helping” (Predestination of the Saints, Ch 7 (III); On Nature and Grace, 62) This “Helping” was upheld at the Council of Mileum II (416ad) and seconded by the Council of Carthage (418ad) of which St. Augustine approved. This really condemned Luther’s Law vs Gospel Paradigm (Canon 3,4). Basically what Luther taught was that Grace takes away sin but it cannot “Help” you not to sin (Prevent) and this is what the Council condemned. The Council directed this against Pelagius! Calvin said no to this “Helping” (Inst. 3,11,15). Why? I think it’s because he didn’t recognize the division of graces; he didn’t recognize Prevenient Grace ( 1 Cor 12) and that it’s a transient grace. Calvin would probably say you don’t prepare something that’s already done. In Calvinism, it seems Total Depravity continues through the Sanctification Process and it would make sense because sins are not cleansed at Justification but merely “Covered” over in the soul but are still there [instead of buried (separated) and removed]. Your sins, not removed but covered over, points to the fact that you are still not really able to Merit. I know all of you would say you are Regenerated and Enabled but that’s a contradiction without the belief in Supernatural Free Will. Calvin also didn’t believe in Infused Virtues (1 Cor 13:13) which are powers in the soul after receiving grace (Inst 3,6,2; 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith, Ch 11, Section 1 - Acts 10:43; Gal. 2:16; Phil. 3:9; Acts 13:38, 39; Eph. 2:7, 8.) This means man is still helpless even after receiving grace - he is an empty shell. This is further proof of Total Depravity. So it seems Calvin believes the way God works through the soul is through nothing but God Himself so it is by Christ alone bypassing man’s Will. Further proof of this is that he denies Merit [Merit means earning more grace while in God’s Grace (in Christ) and does NOT mean Meriting Salvation]. The denial of Merit in the Sanctification Process is the lynchpin that proves Calvin and Luther believed you are Totally Depraved in the Sanctification Process. If you can’t Merit in God’s Grace, along with some residual good left in you after the Fall, then you have to be Totally Depraved by logic. In order to Merit there has to be some residual good in the soul. It’s my opinion that Calvin and Luther never mentioned Grace was present when talking about the Intellect and Will, even though the 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith Larger Catechism speaks of Infused Grace ( #77). (Calvin says Infused with “His (God’s) Holiness, Not yours”, seems to mean Grace is not really Infused - Inst 3,6,2). Seems like a contradiction. I know they believe God works through the soul but I just don’t know how except by maybe just “Passing Through”, a formality, then God continuing on and doing the Necessary Works Himself. It only just looks like you’re doing the Works. Maybe Necessary Works means Works done by Theological Necessity.

Hope this helps in the understanding of Grace. I admit I could be wrong in my interpretation of Luther and Calvin on the effects of Total Depravity on Free Will and the Soul during the Sanctification Process. If anyone can give me quotes and locations in Calvin's and Luther's Works, on Infused Grace in the soul that show I'm wrong, I would be grateful. I want to understand Calvin and Luther correctly. Thanks again!

 

I may have a follow-up post in a couple of days if the thread is still active.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
We see these two intertwined under Perseverance: Sanctification seems more to do with becoming holy and Justification seems more to do with Confessing and Repenting of sin. Rom 8:30 only mentions “Justification” and not Sanctification but we see both of them there. Berkoff clearly includes both under Sanctification but keeps Justification out of the process because of the belief that all sin, past, present and future are forgiven (for the Elect only).

 

Hi Everyone,

Follow up to Original Post

I’m just “thinking out loud”, as my dad use to say, when I write these. Lol I was working on a different paper as a follow up to the original post giving a little more info on Prevenient Grace and giving a good example of it in Scripture but My thoughts kept coming back to Regeneration in the soul. So I’ve done 2 papers since I posted the original post. I may be totally wrong on Luther and Calvin and, I admit, I could even be wrong on Catholic Theology too! A lot of my problem stems from not knowing exactly how Luther and Calvin believed God works through man’s soul. This all plays into how God’s Grace works which includes Prevenient Grace or the lack of it. I’ve studied them and have strong ideas on what they’ve said but I’m not a 100% sure yet. Now I’m thinking the definition of Regeneration doesn’t mean to a Calvinist what it means to a Catholic. What I say below is different from what I said in the original post because of this “Holy Disposition”. In the original post I said Regeneration looked like it was equivalent to our Sanctifying Grace. With this idea of “Holy Disposition” instead of Grace, I think it’s more like our Prevenient Grace but I don’t think it’s that either. But, I could be wrong on that too and that’s why I’m asking for your help. Here’s my notes so far.

Berkhof
Holy Disposition - Used in Sanctification Process
P552

Berkof: It is a supernatural work of God. Some have the mistaken notion that sanctification consists merely in the drawing out of the new life, implanted in the soul by regeneration, in a persuasive way by presenting motives to the will. But this is not true. It consists fundamentally and primarily in a divine operation in the soul, whereby the holy disposition born in regeneration is strengthened and its holy exercises are increased. It is essentially a work of God, though in so far as He employs means, man can and is expected to co-operate by the proper use of these means. Scripture clearly exhibits the supernatural character of sanctification in several ways. It describes it as a work of God, 1 Thess. 5:23; Heb. 13:20, 21, as a fruit of the union of life with Jesus Christ, John 15:4; Gal. 2:20; 4:19, as a work that is wrought in man from within and which for that very reason cannot be a work of man, Eph. 3:16; Col. 1:11, and speaks of its manifestation in Christian virtues as the work of the Spirit, Gal. 5:22. It should never be represented as a merely natural process in the spiritual development of man....

This is My Interpretation of what Berkoff is saying above -
Propositions:
Sanctification is a Divine Operation
This Divine Operation is IN the Soul
Holy Disposition is born in Regeneration
Holy Disposition is strengthened at Point of Sanctification
Sanctification is a Work of God (Alone?)
Sanctification “Can” employ man to Cooperate
God “Can” employ means by which man Cooperates in
the “Work” of Sanctification (probably Necessary Works)
Sanctification is a Work Wrought in man
Sanctification is NOT a Work of man (Cooperative - Naturally Free Will)

My Comment: This sounds like man’s Work in the Sanctification Process is needed but not man’s nature. Man does Works through his Supernatural Will (not Supernatural “Free” Will) which means God does work through the soul but God really is doing it by Himself. God is using man’s Physical Nature to do the Necessary Works but not his wounded Spiritual (Soul) Nature because Berkof would say it’s not wounded but Depraved until you die. This “Holy Disposition” seems to be a replacement of Grace. Our view is that Sanctifying Grace “permanently” resides in the soul which makes us pleasing to God. Also, our view is that Prevenient Grace is a “Power” to be used Freely to choose to do or not to do salutary acts. Salutary Acts are movements toward Christ that further sanctifies us or move us to Justification or helps us Persevere being further Sanctified. A “Holy Disposition” seems to be something more transient where God makes man do Good Works kind of like, maybe, a gentle Force which is sometimes referred to as Necessity, whenever He wants him to do Necessary Works to bring the Elect to Glory. This is still Pelagian because there really is no Grace in the soul. Thos “Holy Disposition” is not Grace. The Grace is in Christ but it never really resides in the soul. (This really does sound like Jonathan Edwards’ Continuous Creation Theory) If there is no Grace residing in the soul there is no Supernatural Free Will. This is Pelagian. This is why You say you can’t keep the Commandments. It’s also a contradiction because this is saying God works through a soul that’s still in Total Depravity.

If this is correct, these are my thoughts on the effects of the propositions above:
1. God’s Goodness is brought into question - If you break a Commandment it’s all God’s fault because He didn’t give you the transient “Holy Disposition” to keep it. Of course it doesn’t matter because you sins are covered. But remember, the ECF’s condemned this.
2. Regeneration must mean a “Holy Disposition” that Works on God’s side, not man’s. For man, this must be a kind of an “Access” to God in which God transiently uses man’s soul to perform Necessary Works for man to Persevere and grow in Sanctification.
3. Pelagian - The Calvinist View still seems to be Pelagian because, when man breaks a Commandment during the Sanctification Process, it is because there is NO GRACE in the soul. The “Holy Disposition” wasn’t there at that moment.
4. It seems that Regeneration works transiently. The access to God, in some way, may be permanent through Justification but what God “Wrought” in us is transiently wrought in us. This seems like it’s the Raising of Lazarus EVERY TIME you do a Necessary Work.

I’m probably wrong on all of this but still looking for the answers! Just thinking out loud. Please tell me where I’m right and where I’m wrong, No pressure, just asking. Thanks!

 

#4A Thread: Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

Part # 1

This was intended to be the continuation to my original post. I thought I would do 2 things in this post:
1. Speak a a little more on Prevenient Grace - specifically on Prophecy (Part #1)
2. Calvin - Denial of Prevenient Grace and Calvin’s View of how Grace works in the soul (Part #2 - separate post)

1. Prophecy (1 Cor 12:10)

We believe you must keep the Commandments to be saved. If you don’t believe you have to keep the Commandments to be saved it’s probably because of the doctrine referred to as the “Law vs Gospel” . I know what you are thinking: You would say, “ Do you keep the Commandments? Do you mean you have never broken a Commandment? (Of course, the answer is No) This means you can’t keep the Commandments.” Our answer is that Perseverance includes Confessing and Repenting of sin (Justification is a Process) so that’s how you keep them. As you grow in Sanctification, which is part of Perseverance, you really are able to keep the Commandments and not break them. In conclusion, if you don’t need to keep the Commandments then you don’t need to keep the Faith or Scripture either.

Here’s why:
Aquinas said Faith is one of the Gifts (1 Cor 12:9) which is one of the Preparatory (Prevenient) Graces (Eph 2:8-10 - v10 “Preparation”; Matt 3:3 - “Prepare” ye the way of the Lord). Aquinas says ALL revealed Knowledge of God comes under Prophecy (STh., II-II q.171 a.1), which is also a Preparatory Grace (1 Cor 12:10), because Prophecy is not just about the future but also about past and present Knowledge from God (STh., II-II q.171 a.3). Moses was said to be the greatest of the Prophets (Deut 34:10)(STh., II-II q.174 a.4) and the Prophetic Knowledge received through Moses was Scripture - Genesis through Deuteronomy. This means the Commandments (Ex 20) and the WHOLE Bible come under Prophecy (1 Cor 12:10). If you think about how much the Prophetic Books alone take up in the Old Testament you’re talking about a lot of scripture. This means that if you don’t have to keep the Commandments then you don’t have to keep the whole Bible either. We agree you are not saved by the Commandments and Scripture (both 1 Cor 12 Grace) “ALONE”, but they are necessary “Prevenient Graces” that lead you to salvation and inspire and help you to Persevere in that salvation. This is very important: The Commandments and Scripture ARE GRACES and these graces are BOTH Extrinsic AND INTRINSIC; NOT just Extrinsic. They are IN YOUR SOUL. Perseverance means staying in Sanctifying Grace (1 Cor 13 Grace) and the way you stay in Sanctifying Grace is through the use of Prevenient Extrinsic and Intrinsic Graces (1 Cor 12 Grace). This means Bible Verses don’t Save you, per se, but they lead you to Christ and keep you In Christ. Baptism (Sanctifying Grace - Regeneration - 1 Cor 13 grace = Pouring in of Charity Rom 5:5) initially saves you. Perseverance is the process by which we stay or are kept in Sanctifying Grace (1 Cor 13 Grace). It’s a Process because we can lose Sanctifying Grace and be cut off through mortal sin (1John 5:16-17). To be restored, you need both kinds of graces: Prevenient Graces (1 Cor 12) and Sanctifying Graces (1 Cor 13). The acquiring of Sanctifying Grace is initially through Baptism then Perseverance in Sanctifying Grace is through receiving the Sacraments of Penance and Holy Eucharist (1 Cor 13 Grace) [Penance (Justification Process Side) and Holy Eucharist (Sanctification Process Side)]. This is why we believe Justification is a process too and not just Sanctification. Both are really the same side or same thing. They are intertwined. There is what we call “Final Perseverance” which I won’t get into now. Here’s the Process: You receive Prevenient Grace and move step by step until Baptism where you are Justified and Sanctified. Maybe, at some point, you backslide and fall into mortal sin and are no longer Justified. Then, Prevenient Grace helps move you to Penance which restores you to Sanctifying Grace. Then, with Prevenient Grace (while in Sanctifying Grace), you do many things like praying and doing Good Works but also you receive the Holy Eucharist and you grow, through that, in Sanctification. This shows how important and necessary both kinds of graces are. Also the Sacrament of Confirmation strengthens us in grace to help BOTH sides.

Even St. Paul admits you are not saved by these Gifts (Prevenient Grace) alone (1 Cor 9:27 - not saved by “Preaching” which comes under the Gift of Faith). He is speaking as the “Sower” of the seed but it’s true of the “Receiver” of the seed as well as has been shown (Both sides are 1 Cor 12 Grace). Aquinas says “Unto Profit” in 1 Cor 12:7 means “Of others” (Latin = Utilitatem)(ST I-II Q.111 A.1). This means Prevenient Grace (1 Cor 12 Grace) is for the benefit of others (from the point of view of those who “Preach” - 1 Cor 9:27). We have to have Charity (Sanctifying Grace) in our hearts (Rom 5:5, 1 Cor 13oGrace) to be Justified. I’m sure St. Paul could preach and quote scripture but he knew that didn’t mean for sure you were going to heaven.

Council of Carthage (418ad)

As I mentioned in my first post, the Council of Carthage (418ad) condemned the Law vs Gospel Paradigm (Indicative-Imperative) [Canons 3,4 Denziger’s #103,104 (225,226)]. I show the Calvinist and Catholic Translations below.

Here are the 2 Canons (highlights are mine):

Canon 3.2 “If any man says that the grace of God, by which man is justified through Jesus Christ, is only effectual for the forgiveness of sins already committed, but is of no avail for avoiding sin in the future, let him be anathema.” (Monergism.com)
Canon 3 “The grace of God....has power only for the remission of sins which have already been committed, and not also for help, that they be not committed, let him be anathema. [Denziger’s 103, (225)]

Canon 4 “If any man says that this grace only helps not to sin, in so far that by it we obtain a better insight into the Divine commands, and learn what we should desire and avoid, but does not also give the power gladly to do and to fulfill what we have seen to be good, let him be anathema.” (Monergism.com)
Canon 4 “In like manner, whoever says that the same grace of God through Jesus Christ, our Lord, helps us not to sin only for this reason, that through it the understanding of the commands is revealed and opened to us, that we may know what we ought to strive after, what we ought to avoid, but that through this [the power] is not also given to us to love and to be able to do that which we know ought to be done, let him be anathema.” [Denziger’s 104, (226)]

My copy in Denziger’s says in Canon 4 “learn what we ought to do”. I like the Denziger’s Version because Luther liked using the words “ought to do” but can’t do in his “Bondage of the Will”.

Here’s an example of that thinking in Luther:

Luther
Bondage of the Will (1525ad)
P164 (Vaughan’s Version)

Rom 3:20 Because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified before him. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Luther: “By the law is the knowledge of sin,” says Paul; he does not say the ‘abolition,’ or the ‘avoidance,’ of it.”
Luther: “So that, as often as you cast the words of the law in my teeth, I will answer you, my Erasmus, with this saying of Paul; “By the law is the knowledge of sin,” not power in the will. Take now some of your larger Concordances, and heap together all the imperative verbs into one chaos (so they be not words of promise, but words of exaction and law), and I shall presently shew you, that by these is always intimated not what men do, or can do, but what they ought to do. Your grammar-masters, and boys in the streets, know this; that by verbs of the imperative mood nothing else is expressed, but what ought to be done: what is done, or may be done, must be declared by indicative verbs.”

My Comment: I know this sounds crazy but, to me, it looks like Calvin and Luther were somewhat Pelagian. Here’s why: The above canons clearly condemn the Law vs Gospel Paradigm. These canons were directed at Pelagius. On Canon 3, think of the Ten Commandments (Grace can’t help prevent Sins in the future). Canon 4 makes you think of Luther saying the Commandments are what you “Ought” to do which means you don’t have to do or can’t do. They are desirable but optional. Luther and Calvin both denied Supernatural Free Will (our Will with God’s Grace in it) and I believe that’s why they said you can’t keep the Commandments. They believe in “Internal” Grace but only transiently . Pelagius said you have the ability already to keep the Commandments with a Natural Free Will and Luther and Calvin said you don’t have that ability but what they all had in common was that they denied a Supernatural Free will (with Grace in it). The key word is “Free”. The only difference was “Election”. In Calvinism, if you are one of the Elect you can Persevere and obtain glory with God’s “Transient” Efficacious Grace. This means the Elect can Persevere and obtain glory without God’s Grace in your soul (Natural Free Will only) transiently. This is because they don’t believe in a Supernatural Free Will (with God’s Grace in it). How can they if they don’t believe in INTRINSIC Prevenient Grace? This is the same as Pelagius. As I said, they would deny this but it’s true. If Calvinists say Regeneration proves they believe Grace is in the soul I would ask: Where? How? It’s not permanent. Think about why you are taught you can’t Keep the Commandments. The logical answer is that transiently there is No grace in your soul. I realize the regular Christian in the pew believes Grace is in the soul with both kinds of graces but what I’m trying to show is that it’s not logical without infused Grace which is in man’s Supernatural Free Will.

 

Hi Everyone,

Part #2

2. Calvin - View on Grace in the Soul

Calvin - Institutes
Prevenient Grace - Denied

2,3,7

Calvin: ....But perhaps some will concede that the will is turned away from the good by its own nature and is converted by the Lord’s power alone, yet in such a way that, having been prepared, it then has its own part in the action. As Augustine teaches, grace precedes every good work; while will does not go before as its leader but follows after as its attendant.17 eThis statement, which the holy man made with no evil intention, has by Lombard been preposterously twisted to that way of thinking.18 e(b)But I contend that in the words of the prophet that I have cited, as well as in other passages, two things are clearly signified: b(1) the Lord corrects our evil will, or rather extinguishes it; (2) he substitutes for it a good one from himself. In so far as it is anticipated by grace, to that degree I concede that you may call your will an “attendant.” But because the will reformed is the Lord’s work, it is wrongly attributed to man that he obeys prevenient grace with his will as attendant. Therefore Chrysostom erroneously wrote: “Neither grace without will nor will without grace can do anything.”19 As if grace did not also actuate the will itself, as we have just seen from Paul [cf. Phil. 2:13]! Nor was it Augustine’s intent, in calling the human will the attendant of grace, to assign to the will in good works a function second to that of grace. His only purpose was, rather, to refute that very evil doctrine of Pelagius which lodged the first cause of salvation in man’s merit.

Here’s my version of Calvin’s Propositions:
Man’s Will, prepared by God, has its own part in the action (Lombard’s View - Calvin disagrees)
Man’s Will, prepared by God, follows this grace as an attendant (Augustine - Calvin agrees)
Man’s Will, prepared by God, means Extinguishing and Replacing man’s Will with a Good Will (Calvin’s View)
Man’s Will is only an attendant in its “Anticipation” of God’s Grace
Man’s Will, obeying with Prevenient Grace as attendant, is erroroneous

My Comment:
This can only be interpreted as Pull, Drag or Force. Calvin’s View is that all grace is Efficacious to the point that man has no choice. This makes God’s Grace not only a “Power” (Free Will) but also makes the “Choice” too (No Cooperative Grace - only Operative Grace). This is what Calvin means by Extinguishing and Replacing man’s Will with a Good Will. If man’s Will doesn’t have its own part in the action then how do you account for the same man sinning during the Sanctification Process? Logically, this overwhelming EFFICACIOUS GRACE has to be TRANSIENT. If this Grace is transient then man logically has to be sinning with his own “Natural Free Will” when this grace isn’t present. So, during the Sanctification Process, man is either Depraved or Filled with Efficacious Grace. Justification takes care of the Depravity automatically and Sanctification is taken care of by God’s Efficacious Grace. I still see this as a form of Pelagianism because, although Grace works through the soul transiently, it doesn’t work at other times. This means that when you sin, you can’t help it; you’re not really responsible. This is exactly what the Council of Carthage condemned in 418ad. This would account for the belief that you can’t keep the Commandments.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
I know the word “Merit” is supercharged but we can’t Merit Justification as I mentioned in post #1 and #6. We can’t Merit Glory either.
Canon i. If any one shall say, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the strength of human nature, or through the teaching of the law, without the divine grace through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema. (Decree on Justification, Session 6, 1547)
God helps us to Merit more Grace after Justification but we are then “In God’s Grace”. The reason for this is that Merit is based on God’s Promises.Trent clearly teaches we cannot Merit Justification. I don’t want to confuse the issue but there is a kind of Merit we call Congruous Merit before Justification but this Merit CANNOT obtain Justification for us. There are what I call 2 Firewalls of Merit: one stops right before Justification and the other is right before Glory. So, you cannot Merit Justification or Glory.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
I believe it’s true we are not saved by Faith alone. This is what Prevenient Grace is all about. The Gift of Faith is a Prevenient Grace (See post #1). They are necessary but Charity has to be in your soul as well. Charity is Sanctifying Grace (Gal 5:6). I really think if you understood correctly what we believe you wouldn’t think it’s that bad. Grace runs all the way through our salvation process. If you read at least my first post most of the way through ( maybe down to where I speculate about Total Depravity) and try to see the Big Picture, then it will start making sense. I know it is way different from your view but if you try I think it will start making sense. Maybe draw on a piece of paper “1 Cor 12” on the left side and “1 Cor 13” on the right and list all the Gifts (Graces) I name in my post on each side. Basically the Gifts would be on the left and the Sacraments and infused virtues on the right. That will help you in understanding. It will at least help you to understand your view better. I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned from reading Luther and Calvin. I disagreed with some of what they said but it helped in understanding mine better. I find that you have to try real hard to understand a different view. It’s almost like learning a different language but you want to understand it correctly before you critique. There are certain things I felt I understood correctly and some things I don’t. That’s really why I’m on here. I love reading what you and the Arminians have to say about Soteriology. Thanks for being on here and sharing your Faith and letting me be on here. May God bless!

 

Hi Dave G,
It’s really great you quoted Luke 1. I thought the same thing about the Blessed Mother. We believe the effect of the same Grace can either be “Efficacious” or what we call “Sufficient”. Efficacious Grace would be like more of what you are thinking with the verses you quoted. The Salutary Act was done. Even with Efficacious Grace we believe technically you can resist. That’s where you would disagree. The Salutary Act being done means that what the Grace was suppose to accomplish did accomplish it. (I am using some theological terminology so that if you ever read some Catholic Theology, you’ll know what they are talking about. Maybe you already do. I’m assuming you don’t.) Grace is said to be Sufficient if the Salutary Act was not done. In other words, the same person can do the Salutary Act or not do it. It’s in their Free Will. If you don’t go by that then you’ll end up “Dividing” everything in Scripture between the Elect and non-elect which is what Calvinists do. I know you are a Calvinist. The Raising of Lazarus is interesting and also the Dry Bones. I’m just about to post an example of Prevenient Grace from Scripture and it is on the Raising of Lazarus so I won’t answer that one right now. The example of Lydia we would call Prevenient Grace and Actual Grace. Maybe I’ll get deeper into efficacious and Sufficient Grace later. Thanks for sharing your Faith!

 

Hi Dave G,
Man I like your insights and your questions. They seem charitable and from the heart. That’s good apologetics. Kind of like “Thinking out loud” as I like to say. You say your “Will” is transformed which I can accept but when you sin after this transformation, Calvin is saying it’s because God didn’t give you Grace AT THAT PARTICULAR TIME. In other words, when you are transformed, the Grace is not permanent (it’s transient).That’s my understanding. We believe the Grace is permanent.

 

Hi Gave G,
I agree with Grace being permanent. I haven’t figured out what Calvin and Berkhof meant by a “Holy Disposition”. A “Holy Disposition” is what they say you receive when you are Regenerated. I don’t know why they don’t use the term “Grace”. This “Holy Disposition” might mean sort of an “Access” of Grace but not the Grace itself so that transiently God can then shoot some Grace through your soul when He wants you to do a Necessary Work. To me, what they are saying doesn’t sound like what you are saying. Your understanding sounds better. I might be wrong in all this so I’m thinking out loud. Thanks for bringing this up!

 

Hi Dave G,
What I meant by Justification is that sin is dealt with there; not only past sins but your future sins as far as forgiveness. I realize you believe you still are going to commit sin and that God’s Efficacious Grace will eventually help you to overcome them in the Sanctification Process. What Calvin and Luther taught, though, was that you cannot keep the Commandments after you are Regenerated. That’s what my post #6 was all about. You have to ask yourself why can’t you keep the Commandments if God’s Grace is always Irresistible? (the “I” in Tulip)

Thanks for all your comments. It helps me in understanding your view much better.

 

Hi Everyone,

Example of Prevenient Grace in Scripture:

Calvin used this one:
Raising of Lazarus (John 11)
Calvin’s Institutes (3,4,5)

Here is the usual Reformed Argument: “What did Lazarus (Free Will) have to do with His own raising from the dead? Jesus did it all. It is all “Irresisitible” Grace!

My Comment:

We agree that Jesus did it all when He raised Lazarus from the dead but this does not deny Free Will. Jesus Doing it all through His grace doesn’t deny Free Will because God’s Grace works through man’s Will and makes it Free. Also, Lazarus previously had a relationship with Christ or as we would say Lazarus had been “Doing God’s Will”.

Calvin didn’t like the scholastics use of allegories but this is a good place to show Prevenient Grace and to contrast it with Sanctifying Grace. The scholastics used the Raising of Lazarus to show the coming to life after Confession in the Sacrament of Penance (Sanctifying Grace - 1 Cor 13 Grace). Aquinas explained this (STh., Supplementum q.8) and took it from St. Augustine. It is explained in #5 below. This Raising of Lazarus couldn’t be really a resurrection in the strict sense because it would have to have been a resurrection resulting in Lazarus going to heaven. The main reason it is not a resurrection in the strict sense, though, is because Christ hadn’t resurrected and He was the first to resurrect (1 Cor 15:20). So the question is: What’s the purpose of this Raising of Lazarus? Since he had already been following Christ and didn’t truly resurrect in the strict sense, what could be the meaning? This is explained under #5 below.

Here are some of the Prevenient Graces prior to Jesus raising Lazarus. You may see other gifts or graces below from 1 Cor 12 or like those in Is 11:2:


1. Jesus already Loved Lazarus (Prevenient Grace) - John 11:3 shows Jesus already “Loved” Him which means that Jesus already “knew” him.
[specific Prevenient Graces - 1 Cor 12:8-9 - Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, also “Knew” (1 Cor 8:3) usually means Sanctifying Grace = Regenerated]

2. Jesus visited Lazarus’ (Prevenient Grace) - Luke 10:38-42 shows that Jesus “visited” Lazarus’ town while he was still living because it says He went to Martha and Mary’s House (Luke 10:38). Martha and Mary were his sisters whom Jesus loved (John 11:5). ( specific Prevenient Graces - 1 Cor 12:8-9 - Wisdom,Knowledge, Faith,)

Somewhere, at this point in this mystical meaning, Lazarus fell into sin

3. Martha & Mary “Interceded” For Lazarus (Prevenient & Actual Grace) (John 11:3)- Martha And Mary did not go out to send for Jesus because of the confidence they had in Christ due to the special love and friendship which he had shown for them (Aquinas, Commentary on John
#1475) (Specific Prevenient Graces - 1 Cor 12: 8 - Faith)

4. John 11:4 - The Glory of God was the reason for the miracle (Prevenient Grace):
A. To chastened Lazarus (Prevenient Grace)
(specific Prevenient Grace - 1 Cor 12:10 - Miracles, Healing)
B. To convert the Jewish People (Prevenient Grace)(specific Prevenient Grace - 1 Cor 12:10 - Miracles)
“ I answer that his illness was not ordained to death as a final end, but to something else, as has been said, that is, that he who was raised, chastened as it were, might live a holy life for the glory of God, and that the Jewish people who saw this miracle might be converted to the faith: “The Lord has chastened me sorely but he has not given me over to death” (Ps 117:18DRV).
(Aquinas, Commentary on John #1478)

5. PENANCE - The Raising of Lazarus (Prevenient AND Sanctifying Grace - BOTH)
St. Augustine saw this as signifying the Sacrament of Penance (Confession).
St. Augustine gave a sermon that discussed the Raising of Lazarus [Augustine, Sermon 17.1.2 (Benedictine 67.1.2), Sermon is on Matt 11:25].
Here’s some excerpts from this sermon (highlights are mine):
“But the sinner is dead, especially he whom the load of sinful habit presseth down, who is buried as it were like Lazarus. For he was not merely dead, he was buried also (John 11:17)....Now what is to “come forth,” but to bring forth what was hidden? He then who confesseth “cometh forth.” “Come forth” he could not were he not alive; he could not be alive, had he not been raised again. And therefore in confession the accusing of one’s self, is the praise of God....Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven.” (Matt 16:19;Matt 18:18) Consider this very case of Lazarus: he comes forth, but with his bands. He was alive already through confession, but he did not yet walk free, entangled as he was in his bands. What then doth the Church to which it was said, “Whatsoever ye shall loose, shall be loosed;” but what8 the Lord said forthwith to His disciples, “Loose him, and let him go”? (John 11:44).”

My Comment: Very Important - Notice: This is a “Restoration”. St. Augustine refers to Lazarus as a “Sinner” and “this Sinner” was dead which signifies Sin which can you off from God’s Sanctifying Grace (Rom 6:23). St. Augustine points out that when John says Lazarus was already in the grave 4 days (John 11:17) that he was not only dead but also “Buried”. This means he was in mortal sin. Why? Imthink St. Augustine is saying is that it’s because the other 2 Christ raised from the dead were dead but not buried -Jairius’ Daughter - Luke 8:40, Mark 5:22 and Widow of Naim’s son - Luke 7:11-17. If you are dead this means you were alive at one time. Lazarus already knew the Lord (see #1-4 above) and St. Augustine said Lazarus’ sickness and death was due to sin (John 11:4) so he fell away. At this point (v4) Jesus said Lazarus was not dead but was sick. Jesus waited 2 more days (John 11:6). My opinion (v6) is that the spiritual meaning is that Jesus “Permitted” Lazarus to continue in his sin until it brought death to his soul (1 John 5:16). Jesus was permitting Lazarus to harden his heart by a withdrawal of His grace (this hardening is shown in Matt 11 which is what St. Augustine’s Sermon was on). Then St. Augustine said that when Jesus said “Lazarus, Come Forth” it was to bring forth what was hidden. Lazarus’ mortal sins he had not Confessed were hidden but Christ knew they were there. Then St. Augustine said something very interesting. He said Lazarus could not come forth unless he was alive meaning “Already” alive while laying in the grave and still buried. This is very subtle but, in my opinion, points to Prevenient Grace because Lazarus was made spiritually alive (enabled) to come to Christ. Enabled doesn’t mean Saved or Regenerated. Then St. Augustine said Lazarus “Came Forth” (acted on Christ’s Calling) and this meant that, with God’s Helping Grace (Calling), he had to do something: He Confessed his sins. St. Augustine said coming forth was his Confession of sin. St. Augustine said Confessing is a form of Praise (Ps 66:4 DRV; Ps 67:5 KJV). From the point of view of Grace, this is because Lazarus came forth through the Helping of God’s Prevenient Grace. He couldn’t hear (hearing is Prevenient Grace - Rom 10:27) Christ’s Call unless he was already made alive by this Prevenient Grace (Both Hearing and Calling). The Calvinists would agree with the Calling and Enabling but probably not the Hearing. Most Protestants probably wouldn’t agree that Lazarus’ had not had his sins (bandages) removed and therefore was not in Sanctifying Grace; not Regenerated. Then St. Augustine said Jesus ordered (Ordained) his disciples (signified the Priesthood) to “Loose” the bandages (Sanctifying Grace - 1 Cor 13 Grace). This means his sins were loosed and removed by Christ’s power through the Priests (Sacrament of Penance). “Removed” (bandages) means totally separated from Lazarus and not remaining on Lazarus and somehow “covered”. Rom 4:7 means separated and buried like in Baptism (Rom 6:4). This is St. Augustine’s interpretation. This whole thing makes me think of the Parable of the Good Samaritan. It’s also about a restoration. Aquinas taught similarly about the Good Samaritan and Calvin commented on it (Inst 2,5,19). The idea was that the man was wounded and half-dead. Jesus was the Good Samaritan and bound his wounds, and restored him.

BAPTISM - The raising of Lazarus DOES NOT SIGNIFY BAPTISM (Sanctifying Grace). The reason Aquinas gives is that it was fitting that Christ would be the first to Resurrect from the dead (1 Cor 15:20)(STh.,III q.53 a.3) . It would fit perfectly in my opinion if it wasn’t for that. Baptism signifies Christ’s death and resurrection. There is some very good symbolism. By the way, Symbolic means that, at the exact time of the pouring of the water and the pronouncing of the Words of Baptism, regeneration is taking place inside - Cause and Effect. So “Symbolic” doesn’t mean nothing happened. At Baptism, our justification is instantaneous just as the raising of Lazarus was instantaneous. In both cases this didn’t rule out Prevenient Grace and, therefore, Supernatural Free Will. Rom 6:4 speaks of Baptism as a death (buried) and Resurrection. So, at the point of Baptism, it shows we had nothing to do with justifying ourselves; God did it all! He raised us from the dead spiritually. We believe Jesus did it all too!

You could show Prevenient Grace with all of the stories in Scripture such as the Dry Bones (Ezekiel 37) or St. Paul on the Damascus Road (Acts 9).