Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

Hi Dave G,
You know, Dave, we believe God is going to divide those who believe from the heart and those who don’t believe too “At the End” but what I honestly think Calvinists are doing is “Dividing at the beginning”. I realized this when I was exegeting Rom 9:22. I realized Calvinists exegete Rom 9 as God “Deciding from Heaven” before we are conceived. We see Rom 9 as God being the Potter on earth molding us during our lives. For example, with the Parable of the Sower, we don’t know which ground we are going to end up being. The ground can change. God gives all men Grace to be saved but some resist. With the Sower, we ALL receive the seed. That’s what the parable is saying. It’s true God already knows who is going to make and who isn’t but we still believe He provides all the Grace so we can make it. We don’t know. It is a mystery. We believe Matt 5:40 proves “Sufficient Grace” which means we can “resist”. Not all grace is Efficacious (Irresistible) as in John 6:37. Scripture says some didn’t “Remain” with Christ (Jer 23:33, Matt 22:13). If you didn’t remain it must mean you did remain and was with God a some point.

 

Hi Dave G,

Hi Dave G,
Its’s some good information and good thinking you are sharing with me and I want to thank you. Your paragraph that starts “Most non-traditionalist “Calvinists” I agree with. I think what Traditionalists, Arminians and Catholics would disagree with is that Calvinists say God predestines the Non-elect from heaven before we are conceived. We do believe God predestines the Elect from heaven but even then, we have to go through the process and WE DON’T KNOW we are one of the Elect. Each person who is one of the Elect can change back and forth during their lives.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
We believe we can have “Confidence” (1 John 5:13-14) we are going to heaven but cannot have “Absolute Assurance”. Really Purgatory doesn’t have anything to do with going to heaven or hell because Purgatory is a temporary state and abode (place). I don’t want to defend Purgatory right now but I could. I want to try and stay on grace as much as possible and especially Prevenient Grace. Thanks for your responses!

 

Hi Dave G,
I love all the info! Don’t worry about your posts being too long. Lol It helps me understand more. I understand generally the different groups but not much further than that “Execpt” for the Calvinists. I seemed to have gravitated to Calvinism. It intrigued me when I first realized they didn’t believe in Supernatural Free Will. Also, I was very interested in Luther so I understand him to a higher degree.

Here’s a little history. Let me explain the groups in the Catholic Church. Yes we have groups too! Lol There are really 4 Groups or different views of Predestination: Augustinian, Congruism, Molinism and Thomism (Banez). The 2 Main Views are Molinism and Thomism. Now I have to explain that there are many different names for these 2 Views:

1. Molinist View, Jesuit View
2. Thomistic View, Dominican View, Banezian View

The Molinists refer to the other view as the Banezian View or Dominican View because Fr Molina claimed his view was also rooted in St. Thomas Aquinas. I follow the Banezian View. I’ve heard that the predominant view in the Catholic Church Today is the Molinist View but I was influenced by Fr Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange, my favorite theologian, who follows Fr Domingo Banez’ View. The Dominican View is the one that goes all the way back to the early church in my opinion. Fr Garrigou-LaGrange is the most “Pure” Thomist and I like the most pure form of what I believe to be the Faith handed down and that’s why I follow him. I like to say that if you took St. Thomas and put him in the 20th century you would have Fr Reginald Garrigou-LaGrange. He didn’t try to update Aquinas with the times like the others did. He fought Modernism.

After the Protestant Reformation, the Jesuit Fr Louis Molina tried to reconcile somewhat Catholic Predestination with the Protestant reformers. He came out with his “Concordia” in 1582. This set off a firestorm among the Dominicans. Their leader was Fr Domingo Banez. They began attacking each to the point that the Jesuits and Dominicans were fighting in public. The Pope called them to Rome and had these 2 debate In front of him so he could decide. This famous debate took place in the 1590’s in Rome. It ended with a standoff because the pope died. Since the church was reeling from the Protestant Revolt, the new Pope said they could not debate the issue. That’s why we still have both views today. They do apparently fall into the parameters of the doctrine of the church.

Hope that helps!

 

Hi Dave G,
You’re giving me more good info! I have to say that in this case I agree more with the Traditionalists. We believe in Operative AND Cooperative Grace too. Calvinists believe only in Operative Grace. St Augustine believe in Both (On Nature and Grace, Ch 33 (17). No, I see Calvinists on one side and basically everybody else on the other as far as the Theology goes. The last thing you said about the different camps accusing each other makes me think that each camp has some Calvinism in it and some Traditionalism in it and some Arminianism in it. Some emphasize one view more than another. That’s what I see from the outside. This makes it very difficult to keep everything straight. When I criticize I am usually criticizing Luther or Calvin because this the “Unmixed” pure Theology.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
Instead of talking about the blood, I’ll take a different approach: If you are judged by God at the time of your death (Heb 9:27) how can you be judged before that time? That’s the way we would look at it. Calvinism seems to place the time of this judgement before we are conceived and OSAS Group places this judgement at the point of Justification. Good question!

 

Hi Everyone,

St. Augustine - Prevenient Grace

I thought I needed to say a couple of things about St. Augustine. I know many of you would know Leighton Flowers, who is a Traditionalist Baptist and probably also know the Reformed Baptist, James White. Are those titles alright? Anyway, if you do, you know they debate back and forth all the time. I enjoy watching them and I’ve learned a lot. Leighton Flowers, in a couple of his Youtube Videos, had a guest named Ken Wilson on. Ken is a very learned man who graduated from Oxford and did his doctoral dissertation on St. Augustine. I read some of his book. He’s very insightful and is very knowledgeable but he said something that I noticed many people from ALL the different Protestant Camps say - both sides. They say St. Augustine believed in Free Will and later didn’t believe in Free Will and “Retracted” it. When I first saw this I thought: “Wait a minute. We believe in a Supernatural Free Will and we made St. Augustine a Doctor of the Church. We refer to him as the “Doctor of Grace”. This is the highest honor except for sainthood and we Canonized him a Saint too so what gives?” This made me do some research. Some in Protestant Camps on both sides say St. Augustine retracted Supernatural Free Will in his book near the end of his life in a work titled “Retractions”. If he did, it would be peculiar because he wrote a book the same to year titled “Treatise on Grace and Free Will” (427ad) in which he defended Free Will. Retractationes also came out in 427ad. Notice: First of all, the book is titled “Retractationes” and not “Retractions”. The 2 words are not the same. The Latin word “Retractationes” first comes from the Latin word “Tractus” which means “a drawing out” so it means “Drawing out again”. Ultimately it means the same as today you might say that it’s a “Supplement” to the original books . The book is to further explain things that he felt he didn’t explain as well as he thought he should have. He didn’t “Retract” hardly anything as I understand it, he “Clarified” things. One thing he didn’t “Retract” is Supernatural Free Will. He “Clarified” it or “Reaffirmed” it.

Here’s a little information I found from my research

Title: The Foundation of Augustinanism-Calvinism
By Ken Wilson

The following seems to be Ken Wilson’s main arguments that St. Augustine no longer believed in a Supernatural Free Will (Man’s Will with God’s Grace in it) and moved to Determinism.

P 59 (Ken Wilson’s Book)

Ken Wilson quotes St. Augustine (This is St. Augustine speaking): “Later in this book, the second question deals with the passage where the Apostle says: “Not she [Sara] only, but Rebecca also who conceived by one man Isaac our father,” up to where he says: “Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us a posterity, we should have become as Sodom, and should have been like Gomorrah.” In the solution of this question, I, indeed, labored in defense of the free choice of the human will; but the grace of God conquered, and finally I was able to understand, with full clarity, the meaning of the Apostle: “For who singles thee out? Or what hast thou that thou hast not received? And if thou hast received it, why dost thou boast as if thou hadst not received it?” (Retractations, To Simplician, Book 2)

Ken Wilson: Augustine admitted he had abandoned the centuries-old Christian doctrine of human free choice.[114] "In the solution of this question I struggled in behalf of free choice of the will, but the grace of God won out." (Retr. 2.1). "When I began my books on Free Choice [3.68]… I still doubted the condemnation of infants not born again [baptized]" (pers.30) and "before this heresy [Pelagianism] arose, they did not have the necessity to deal with this question, so difficult of solution. They would have undoubtedly have done so if they had been compelled to respond to such men." (pers.2.4; pred.44).” (P 59 - Ken Wilson’s Book)

I’m only commenting on the first part and not on Infant Baptism here

My Comment: I disagree. I noticed Fr Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange quoted 1 Cor 4:7, in his book on Predestination, more than any other verse! Matter of fact, if you read a little further and see what else St. Augustine said, you’ll see just the opposite so I think it’s a misunderstanding:

St. Augustine (a little further in this same book): “In the second book, the other questions are treated and are solved to the best of our ability, howsoever insignificant; all are taken from the part of Scripture which is called “of Kings.” The first of these is: On what is written: “And the spirit of the Lord came upon Saul,”(1 Sam 10:10) although, in another place, this is said: “And an evil spirit of the Lord … upon Saul.”(1 Sam 16:14) When I was explaining this, I said: “Although what he wills is in the power of every man, nevertheless, what he can do is not in the power of every man.”16 This was said, then, because we do not say that a thing is in our power unless, when we will, it is done; for this reason, willing itself is first and foremost. For without an interval of time, the will itself is present instantly when we will;17 but we also receive from above the power to live rightly when “the will is prepared by the Lord.”(Retractations, To Simplician, Book 2)

My Comment continued: What St. Augustine is saying is that when Saul had the “Spirit of the Lord come upon him” and then had “an evil spirit come upon him”, in each instance, St. Augustine is saying:

Propositions:
Man has the power to Will
Man does not have the power to Will what he can do
(meaning what he should do which is to live rightly)
Man’s Will receives the “Power” to live rightly when “Prepared” by the Lord

Notice: Man’s Will is “Prepared” (Preparatory Graces - 1 Cor 12 Grace). This means man’s Will Receives the “Power” from above. Man’s Will is made “Free” (enabled) to be able to make a choice. So it’s not Replacing the Will like Calvin taught but building up of the SAME Will with God’s Grace in it to the point where the same man can choose to live justly with each choice but,
still be able not to live justly with each choice if he wants to. Man, with the same Will, had some good left in it after the Fall so, with Grace added, it has the Power to make a real choice. So what St. Augustine said that Ken Wilson quoted was saying that Grace “Precedes” our ability to make a choice. This is what 1 Cor 4:7 means. God goes first - Preparation.

Infant Baptism

Off the top of my head, I would say Infant Baptism doesn’t have to do directly with Prevenient Grace because it is “Sanctifying Grace” ( 1 Cor 13 Grace). Prevenient Grace that is present leading up to an infant Baptism is in the parents and Godparents. The parents and godparents had to use their Supernatural Free Will to bring the infant to the point of Baptism. The “Gift of Faith”(1 Cor 12 Grace) is in the parents and Godparents. Once the infant is Baptized, it receives an “Infused Virtue of Faith” ( 1 Cor 13:13).


Dualism

Ken Wilson said St. Augustine had been a Manichaean before converting to Christianity and retained some of his Manichaean tendencies. He said the Manichaeans were Dualists and said the Calvinists were too and Ken thought St. Augustine was where the Calvinists got it from. I definitely disagree with that. Calvin grew up in Northern France but Southern France had the Albigensians who were Cathars. The Cathars were Neo-Manichaeans, therefore, they were Dualists. Maybe Calvin was influenced by one of them in the north. The Catholic Dominican Order was created to defeat the Albigensian Heresy that centered around the town of Albi, near Toulouse, in southern France. The Albigensians were a branch of the Cathars and Dualists.

All this I hadn’t heard before so I’m thankful to Ken for that.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
We would say the key words are those “In Christ”. We believe those “In Christ” can change (Rom 8:1). There are a few “If’s” in Rom 8.

 

Hi Yeshua1,
The verse means (Eph 4:30) is that you can fall away after Baptism. The parallel verse is Acts 7:51 which says you can “Resist” the Holy Ghost. We call this “Sufficient Grace” instead of “Efficacious Grace”. Not all grace is Irresistible. “Sealed unto the day of Redemption” means you were sealed (Stamped) at Baptism as a pledge (promise) of future glory (STh., III q.63 a.3 ad 1). I see this “Promise” in Eph 1:13-14 (Baptism). It’s like a down payment or a beginning. I know, to you, it looks like it means it’s a done deal but that’s not what it means.

 

Hi Everyone,
For your information, I am going to be off until the new year except to answer any posts. In January I will be out of town for a couple of weeks but don’t worry I’ll be back! You made me feel welcome. Half the time I want to continue my studies and, maybe the other half, post on here. Not sure yet how that will work. So I will be on here later. I’m thinking about working on a Post about the most controversial part of Prevenient Grace - Cooperative Grace. At least, that will be one of them. So I need time to work on those. I’ve enjoyed being on here and I want to thank you for your kindness. I am fully aware that we Catholics are the enemy, so to speak, (Lol) but I think if you put up with us you will get a more FULL picture of the controversy concerning Calvinism vs Arminianism (and Traditionalism) and the Reformation. I think we have been too quiet in all this and left a big void. There is another side. So Merry Christmas to you all and may God Bless every one of you. You truly are in my prayers. God bless!