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Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Johnv, Jun 7, 2003.

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  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    There are currently two prevailing theories regarding Neanderthal Man and Cro Magnon Man.

    One theory is that Cro Magnon was a later decendent of Neanderthal.

    The other theory is that Cro Magnon and Neanderthal existed at the same time (although Neanderthal existed prior), and that Cro Magnon's existence eventually drove Neanderthal to extinction, either because of a greater ability to adapt, or by competition for the same resources.

    Also, if you side towards the second theory, do you think that Cro Magnon and Neanderthal interbred, or did they exist as separate species/groups?
     
    #1 Johnv, Jun 7, 2003
  2. Deacon

    Deacon Well-Known Member
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    The Discovery Channel is doing a special show on the Neanderthal and Cromagnon's. It's gotta give a definitive answer to your question, they appear to have live action photos and movies of them in the promo's! [​IMG]

    Rob
     
    #2 Deacon, Jun 7, 2003
  3. NeilUnreal

    NeilUnreal New Member

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    Based on my very limited knowledge of this subject, I'd say it's unlikely Cro-Magnon decended from Neanderthal. As to interbreeding, I think its just too early to say. The evidence seems to favor little or no interbreeding, but the evidence is a little scant. Perhaps Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal existed side-by-side in some areas but weren't interfertile even when they did happen to mingle.

    -Neil
     
    #3 NeilUnreal, Jun 7, 2003
  4. john6:63

    john6:63 New Member

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    You forgot the Biblical creationist theory. Since the evolutionary community are bickering over your exacted question. The Biblical creationists all agree that these Neanderthal folks were a spilt from other groups following the Babel dispersion in the Ice Age. Since the earth is between 6 to 10 thousand years old, I don’t believe there were any sub humans. Those professing Christians, who like Hugh Ross from reasons to believe, accepts secular dating methods, which creates a big problem for them. Since they cannot date Adam back too far without stretching the genealogies beyond recognition, any human-type skeletons “dated” earlier than a few tens of thousands of years ago have to be written off as pre-Adamic ‘soulless’ quasihumans and we Bible believing Christians know better than that. :D
     
    #4 john6:63, Jun 7, 2003
  5. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    Personally, I've known some neanderthals and some Cro-magnons. We had one lineman in high school that the other coaches wouldn't allow to play until they heard him talk. The bass player in my blues band, in college, "Bear", and our Drummer, "Oinker" were definitely neanderthal and Cro-mag respectively. My next door neighbor Elmo has the walk, the forehead, and the vocabulary of a Neanderthal, and I've been accused of being a Cro-Magnon myself. And remember, the first Neanderthal skeletons were found in Germany...
     
    #5 Major B, Jun 7, 2003
  6. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    I was telling my ten-year-old daughter about Neandertals recently, and I was explaining what they looked like. "Squat, powerfully built, large heads, prominent noses..."

    "Dad," she said. "That's you."
     
    #6 The Galatian, Jun 7, 2003
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    You forgot the Biblical creationist theory.... these Neanderthal folks were a spilt from other groups following the Babel dispersion in the Ice Age.
    The fossil record doesn't support this. The fossil record shows that Neanderthals were prominent in most of Northern Europe for thousands of years prior to Cro Magnon in the same region. When Cro Magnon began migrating north into Europe, Neanderthal quickly disappeard. Fossil evidence regarding the two groups in Europe is quite concrete.

    Those professing Christians, who like Hugh Ross from reasons to believe, accepts secular dating methods, which creates a big problem for them. Since they cannot date Adam back too far without stretching the genealogies beyond recognition, any human-type skeletons “dated” earlier than a few tens of thousands of years ago have to be written off as pre-Adamic ‘soulless’ quasihumans and we Bible believing Christians know better than that.
    I'm not sure why, since Gen2 is very specific that what made man was not two arms, two legs, and the ability to stand upright, but instead that "man became a living soul".

    In any event, I didn't not intend this to be a creation debate, but rather a discussion over the scenarios presented above.
     
    #7 Johnv, Jun 8, 2003
  8. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I would hope so, considering that Cro Magnon is homo sapien.

    The term Cro-Magnon (cro man-yun) refers to an area in southern France where prehistoric human remains were found in 1868. The skeletal remains of the ancient people found in those caves were named Cro-Magnon Man after the place they were found (Some other famous remains named after the place that they were found are Java Man, Peking Man, Neandertal Man, and Kennewick Man).

    Generally, the name given to one set of skeletal remains comes to be associated with all of the people who lived in that same area at that same time, and who shared characteristics observed in the original skeletal remains. So, as additional remains were uncovered over time, names like Neandertal Man, Peking Man and Cro-Magnon Man came to be used to refer to large groups of prehistoric people.

    In this case, Cro-Magnon Man is used to refer to anatomcially modern people living throughout Europe and the Middle East about 40,000 years ago. They looked pretty much like the people living in Europe and the Middle East do today.

    The reason why the Homo erectus and Homo neandertalis species went extinct is hotly debated. Homo erectus had a considerably smaller brain than Homo neandertalis or Homo sapien, which may have contributed to an inability to keep up with the competition. But there seem to be some instances where all three species lived in the same place at the same time. What is clear in the fossil record is that for about the last 40,000 years, Homo sapien has been the only species in the genus Homo.

    [ June 08, 2003, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
    #8 Johnv, Jun 8, 2003
  9. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    I would hope so, considering that Cro Magnon is homo sapien.

    ...What is clear in the fossil record is that for about the last 40,000 years, Homo sapien has been the only species in the genus Homo.     </font>[/QUOTE]That does not address my Neanderthal neighbor or relatives...
     
    #9 Major B, Jun 9, 2003
  10. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    So when you feel his eyebrows, can you feel the extra eyebrow ridges there? ;)
     
    #10 Paul of Eugene, Jun 9, 2003
  11. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    You can see 'em plainly. In all seriousness, I don't see why it is beyond the realm of possibility that some Neanderthal and cro-mag genes got mixed. I have seen some pretty women with some ugly dudes...
     
    #11 Major B, Jun 9, 2003
  12. WillRain

    WillRain New Member

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    Bushwah.

    Neandethals were diseased Cro Magnons.

    God only made one race of men (at least, only one at a time...what happened pre-Adam is open to a bit more speculation I suppose)
     
    #12 WillRain, Jun 10, 2003
  13. The Galatian

    The Galatian Active Member

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    What makes you think that?
     
    #13 The Galatian, Jun 10, 2003
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    The evidence simply doesn't support this. Neanderthals were well established all over Europe for millenia, until Cro Magnon came on to the scene.
     
    #14 Johnv, Jun 11, 2003
  15. Major B

    Major B <img src=/6069.jpg>

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    As a career Air Force officer, we had to fly lots of troops around, and my opinion is that Neanderthals were just US Marines before we gave them that job in 1775.
     
    #15 Major B, Jun 11, 2003
  16. UTEOTW

    UTEOTW New Member

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    Well, I have got to ask what evidence you have to support this. There are morphology differences between the two that I think you would have a hard time explaining. Simply, the evidence does not support you. There is also evidence regarding the kinds of artifacts left by Neanderthals and what this shows about the relative levels of creativity and abstract thinking in the two. Cro Magnon were the first artists and had better technology among other things.

    But you start down an interesting path. If Neanderthal were only diseased humans, what were the following: Home heidelbergensis, Homo erectus, Homo ergaster, and Homo habilis? Which of these are fully homo sapiens and which of these are fully ape completely unrelated to homo sapiens? With some reasons, please.
     
    #16 UTEOTW, Jun 18, 2003
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