Featured What is Calvinism?

Utilyan,
Honesty is when someone tells you something that you may not want to hear and that the Bible teaches,
but isn't well-regarded or popular due to it's negative connotations or the fact that it will not be well-received by those hearing it.

In other words, instead of the Bible being filled with love towards all of mankind,
there's also God's wrath ( Romans 1:18, Romans 9:22 and many other places ) and hatred of sin that needs to be addressed.

I suggest reading more of the Old Testament to get an idea of God's holiness.

Then there's the matter of His choosing some for salvation and the rest to be left in their sins and to suffer everlasting punishment for them...
See Romans 9.

If by "excommunication" you mean that a person is rejected for heresy ( dividing the body of Christ per Titus 3:10-11 ) then I understand the reference.
Anything past rejecting a person and leaving them up to the Lord is not Scriptural.

For example, torture, strangling and burning at the stake are not Biblical forms of excommunication,
yet many atrocities were carried out during the Religious Wars of the 1500's and 1600's in absolute disobedience to God's words.

Neither do so-called "Calvinists".

 

And I understand yes, Peter could be referencing people who were Judaizers and we're never saved, but the point I'm making is once you are saved if you do screw up and fall back into your old sin, you don't lose your salvation when you're overcome because that would mean you can only overcome once in your lifetime and I've overcome many times. It didn't mean I lost my salvation and it showed me how incredible God's grace is. There are some of the Arminian faith, that will tell you that to be overcome is loss of salvation and say that you can get your salvation back many times, but my litmus test is Hebrews 6 and 10 which says you're only saved once. They complain about Calvinism saying Salvation is irrevocable but then turn around and say that Arminianism sees Salvation as incredibly flexible. Where for a Calvinist Salvation stands in God's mercy and grace, Arminianism believes in man's choice to repent; if you hurry up and do it before you die anyways


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I'm Glad you believe the GOOD WORK of Love is required.

 

Meeting all the requirements in the world will not save anyone, Utilyan.
That would be salvation by works.
Yet, Scriptures tells us that it is by grace ( Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9 ).

God saves and God damns.

He is the Saviour, and we are the recipients of that grace.
He doesn't ask for help in the process, and we don't give Him any.

The good work of love is another of the many evidences that His children exhibit...
Because He has made them new creatures in Christ, not because we cooperated in making ourselves new creatures.

Making love into a work will not get any of us into His graces.
We love Him because He first loved us ( 1 John 4:19, those that believe ).

 

The claim being made is the Catholic teaches they saves themselves. Show me the teaching.

Tell me which one of these is wrong:

1. If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.
2. If any one saith, that the grace of God, through Jesus Christ, is given only for this, that man may be able more easily to live justly, and to merit eternal life, as if, by free will without grace, he were able to do both, though hardly indeed and with difficulty; let him be anathema.
3. If any one saith, that without the prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him; let him be anathema.

 

Well God is the one that saves. There is nothing you or I can do to save ourselves. Here is the reality, if God truly wanted to save every person, every person would be saved. But since we know that is not the case, then there is either a conflict with 1 Timothy and reality or there is a misunderstanding of 1 Timothy.

I read, based on context, that passage to say God desires all types of people to be saved.

 

"God truly wanted"

So when God commands all not to sin he is he deceptive?

So when you sin, well.....God "TRULY" didn't mind?

Does God "TRULY" want you to stop sinning?


I read this in scripture too:
Genesis 3

1Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”

 

# 3 I disagree with because God's grace is not "prevenient" and available to all.
I do agree that outside of God's grace no one would believe, but that only His elect, those given to Christ by the Father ( John 6:37-40, John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) will believe.
Also, Justification is not bestowed upon a person because of what they do...
it is bestowed upon a person outside of anything that they do.

People believe on Christ, from the heart because they are Christ's sheep ( John 10:26-27 )...
They do not believe on Christ to go from being a goat, to being a sheep.

I also disagree with these:

CANON VII.-If any one saith, that all works done before Justification, in whatsoever way they be done, are truly sins, or merit the hatred of God; or that the more earnestly one strives to dispose himself for grace, the more grievously he sins: let him be anathema.

CANON XII.-If any one saith, that justifying faith is nothing else but confidence in the divine mercy which remits sins for Christ's sake; or, that this confidence alone is that whereby we are justified; let him be anathema.

CANON XIV.-If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema.

CANON XV.-If any one saith, that a man, who is born again and justified, is bound of faith to believe that he is assuredly in the number of the predestinate; let him be anathema.

CANON XVII.-If any one saith, that the grace of Justification is only attained to by those who are predestined unto life; but that all others who are called, are called indeed, but receive not grace, as being, by the divine power, predestined unto evil; let him be anathema.

CANON XIX.-If any one saith, that nothing besides faith is commanded in the Gospel; that other things are indifferent, neither commanded nor prohibited, but free; or, that the ten commandments nowise appertain to Christians; let him be anathema.

CANON XX.-If any one saith, that the man who is justified and how perfect soever, is not bound to observe the commandments of God and of the Church, but only to believe; as if indeed the Gospel were a bare and absolute promise of eternal life, without the condition of observing the commandments ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXVII.-If any one saith, that there is no mortal sin but that of infidelity; or, that grace once received is not lost by any other sin, however grievous and enormous, save by that of infidelity ; let him be anathema.

CANON XXX.-If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema.

CANON XXXI.-If any one saith, that the justified sins when he performs good works with a view to an eternal recompense; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXII.-If any one saith, that the good works of one that is justified are in such manner the gifts of God, as that they are not also the good merits of him that is justified; or, that the said justified, by the good works which he performs through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ, whose living member he is, does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life,-if so be, however, that he depart in grace,-and also an increase of glory; let him be anathema.

CANON XXXIII.-If any one saith,that,by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.


In effect, I do not regard the Canons of Trent as having any binding whatsoever upon me.

 

The Second Council of Orange of 529 stated that faith, though a free act, resulted even in its beginnings from the grace of God, enlightening the human mind and enabling belief.
This supports Article Four of the Remonstrance


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Prevenient Grace is an attempt to support free will by saying that God gives every single person the option to choose CHRIST and He has done so for every person throughout time. Every ancient Mayan, Polynesian, Indian, Asian and any gentile has to be given the choice or free will isn't being honored so it can't be true if even one person throughout time hasn't heard the good news!


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Jacobus Arminius describes Prevenient Grace;
Concerning grace and free will, this is what I teach according to the Scriptures and orthodox consent: Free will is unable to begin or to perfect any true and spiritual good, without grace. …This grace goes before, accompanies, and follows; it excites, assists, operates that we will, and co operates lest we will in vain.
From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia, article on Prevenient Grace and
Arminius, Jacobus 1853, The Works of James Arminius, D.D., Formerly Professor of Divinity in the University of Leyden, Auburn, NY: Derby & Miller, vol. 2:472.

So without this prevenient grace you simply cannot believe.
What's missing is an explanation of how everyone throughout time were given this option, because if anyone isn't given prevenient grace that would mean someone wasn't allowed to have freewill.


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I don't think #3 its about the Arminian idea of Prevenient grace.

"Prevenient" is a trigger word.

Might help to read it slowly: prevenient inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and without his help, man can believe, hope, love, or be penitent as he ought, so as that the grace of Justification may be bestowed upon him.

Or let me word the contrary.... Do you think that without God's help or without any inspiration of the holy spirit a man can believe, hope, love or penitent as he ought so as to earn grace of justification.

 

1 Corinthians 13 does not claim that "a Faith devoid of LOVE" is "EVIL", see for yourself:

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 [NKJV]
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed [the poor], and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love suffers long [and] is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; 5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; 6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether [there are] prophecies, they will fail; whether [there are] tongues, they will cease; whether [there is] knowledge, it will vanish away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these [is] love.
​

For the record, Particular Baptists don't believe in Faith devoid of Love, we believe what John said applies to us:

1 John 4:7-21 [NASB95]
7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [to be] the Savior of the world.
15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17 By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19 We love, because He first loved us. 20 If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.​

What Particular Baptists do not believe in, is a Justification based in any part on human works of obedience or righteousness.

 

No I do not.
In addition, the grace of justification cannot be earned.

See Romans 4:4, Romans 11:5-6, Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

^See for yourself.

 

That is what we are saying, It can't be earned.

 

Why is there a law that says "No drinking and driving"?

Are the police being deceptive?
They KNOW that some people are not going to obey.
Do the police TRULY mind?
Do they REALLY want you to stop driving drunk?

If they start a program to confiscate the keys of some individuals leaving bars that are too drunk to drive (stopping them from driving drunk), does that mean that the police really want everyone else to drive drunk?

This is the argument you are making about God!
God COMMANDS all men to do the right thing.
No one does (Romans 3)
God draws some and empowers them to do the right thing "in spite of themselves" (Romans 9 & Ephesians 2)

Reread the king and the feast (Matthew 22:1-14).

 

The way I look at it if God didn't want every single person to be saved He wouldn't have written their name in a book of creation before the foundation of the world. To say that God just wanted people groups or some people out of certain people groups to be saved it's not very loving so if it's not our freewill what hinders God what does? You don't see it going on but there is a spiritual war and Satan really doesn't want you to get saved. In the Parable of the Wheat and the Tares Satan, God's enemy, salts God's field with weeds. God says if you pull those weeds now you will destroy the field so you have to wait till the harvest. This tells me that if God could get rid of Satan and his works He would, but they are too deeply rooted in the world and it will take Armageddon to get rid of them. God doesn't use Satan as a tool so why not get rid of him, because he is affecting the salvation of other people, unless you believe in Prevenient Grace which says that God must give every single person the option to choose Him despite of what Satan does. I feel, for example, in Iran that there's more weeds there and God is fighting a spiritual battle to get there. Our neat and tidy doctrines make us feel better when we go to sleep at night but there are people that don't have the Word of God and are perishing because of the war. Prevenient Grace says, "don't worry about it God will make sure you have your choice" and Calvinism says, "don't worry about it God will choose who He wants" but the Great Commission says "I will empower you to go and preach my Word" so by God's power we can plow the fields, remove the rocks, and pull the weeds so God can have a harvest in these countries


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The verse was not talking about salvation, only you were. Here are passages about salvation:

Romans 10:9-10 [NIV]
9 If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Acts of the Apostles 2:37-39 [NKJV]
37 Now when they heard [this], they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men [and] brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."

Ephesians 2:4-10 [NKJV]
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

 

"2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing."

Faith without works:

• [James 2:19 NKJV] 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

Good works following faith and salvation:

• [Ephesians 2:8-10 NKJV] 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; [it is] the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.